Cus D'amato - No Swarmer Beats Foreman?

Aggressive counter puncher in my book. Qawi too.

 

Can't say I'd want to be a big puncher going up against Quarry either. He was like the opposite of Norton.

 

I gave Frazier 2 out of 4 rounds in the rematch with Foreman as well.

Tommy Morrison had to play keepaway to beat Old George so that’s a point made.

Thought Foreman avoided Quarry because he was a solid counter puncher.

As for slugfests Liston is my pick to end Foreman early.

 

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/prime-mike-tyson-88-vs-prime-george-foreman-73.679611/
You are not the only one who would like to see that.

 

It goes without saying Foreman says a lot of overly generous things in his older years that are... questionable at best such as saying a prime Frazier would've beaten him.

Fact of the matter is, Quarry would start gushing blood the moment they locked eyes during the stare-down. Let's be real. And I'm a Quarry fan.

 

It is fair to say that a style advantage is not an automatic win, but you may betray some bias here.
"A" swarmer would need these things? Given how good Foreman was & the paucity of great swarmers at HW, should you not make that the rare great swarmer? Even then, unless they are around Tyson's size, not a Marciano or Dempsey, I think they stand little chance.

Some, maybe all of the greats lost a bunch of rounds to inferior fighters.
Fighters who dominated might give them away early.
Did Frazier even win multiple rounds?

 

Foreman's shoving helped, but I agree it would not have made the difference.
However continually pulling & holding his man's head down in Ali 2 certainly made it impossible to know who would have won IF the rules were properly enforced.
As brilliant as Ali was in Zaire, this cheating likely helped him exhaust Foreman.

 

He crushed the best swarmer in heavyweight history like a bug, so I'd agree.

 

Obviously. Nobody ever has or would beat Foreman by attacking him head-on. There's a certain game-plan that needs to be implemented and it involves moving and hitting.

 

Here are the questions you need to ask.

Do swarmers need to be in top condition to be successful?

I'd say yes. History has shown us that. Swarmers can't afford to take a night off.

Was Frazier in top condition when he faced Foreman?

He was a lean 205 when he beat Ali in his best performance. He was a soft looking 214 and largely inactive when he first faced Foreman, and in worst shape for the rematch in one of his final matches.

 

I don't care about a hyperbolic headline.

The fight is available for all to see. Frazier avoided Foreman's power for 2 rounds, landed counters, didn't implode in the 3rd when Foreman finally landed, rallied in the 4th, before gassing out in the 5th as he was far removed from prime condition.

Frazier was literally dominated every second of the first fight but was competitive for 4 rounds of the rematch while in bad physical shape. I think insisting Frazier was dominated in both fights is lazy and dishonest. We aren't selling magazines here. We are boxing fans on a forum that should know better.

 

If we are factoring Old George. Holyfield beat him with largely volume punching swarmer tactics out of a crab defense.

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I knew that stuff for forever man.
I am saying that it would be a rare swarmer who would have a decent chance against Foreman.
Tyson-assuming he is labeled thusly, although somewhat of a counter-puncher & not as high volume-might.

 

If we count Tyson as a swarmer he has the best chance against George imo ,and this is because of his handspeed.Using Frazier's condition as the reason he lost his fights to Foreman is like telling a story and leaving out the middle chapters.Convenient, self serving and in this case conceited,because it implies those who believe Frazier lost because of the clash of styles are ignorant and do not possess the boxing acumen to understand what actually happened .
Citing Frazier winning what1/2 rds against Foreman in their rematch means absolutelyJACK ****! He won it/ them, by trying to implement a style that he could not sustain because of his physical stature.Foreman was not bothered by Frazier adapting a stick and move strategy, he knew at some point Joe had to engage with him and he knew with utmost certainty what the result would be when that happened.George knew the result of their second fight when he signed the contract and so did anybody with any sense!
Prime Frazier does not beat prime Foreman!
Coming in Frazier gets tagged before he can get into range,once in range the bigger stronger Foreman ties him up and shoves him back out to his preferred distance and recommences systematically dismantling him. I apologise to just about all the regulars here for mentioning this because they already know it!