Cus D'amato - No Swarmer Beats Foreman?

Joe Frazier was not competitive in either fight. That's not a knock on Joe. It's just not a good match up for him.

 

I'm aware that Holyfield defeated a past prime Foreman. Did I ever suggest otherwise?

Holyfield isn't an honest guy in my opinion but I believe Foreman was likely his physically strongest opponent. Old Foreman was a mountain, physically stronger than his younger self but much slower.

Obviously, I still like Holyfield's chances against a younger Foreman....hence my pick lol. Evander is physically one of the stronger men to ever lace them up, not a big puncher, but he could impose himself on anyone.

Dempsey is one of the bigger swarmers actually. Taller and reachier I believe than Frazier or Tyson. His speed was blinding, his technique innovative, and I would never describe him as "easy to hit." I'm all for revisionism but that just don't ring true. Nobody found him an easy target.

I don't buy this "bully" nonsense in regards to Tyson. It's a ridiculous narrative constructed by people that don't understand boxing. Nobody out "bullied" Tyson more than Ruddock and he still lost twice.

 

I think Jerry could have given George problems as long as he didn't wade in like he did against Frazier.

 

He was absolutely competitive in the rematch and Foreman ultimately winning doesn't negate that.

I think this is getting twisted all around. Frazier wasn't winning the fight, it wasn't even, and Foreman was rightfully ahead. But that doesn't mean it wasn't competitive. Some rounds were close and Frazier made Foreman work for it, got in some good shots of his own, and avoided being in danger for 4 rounds. That's competitive by any realistic definition.

If you feel both fights are interchangeable....I just can't agree. This isn't Liston/Patterson by any means.

 

Frazier was not winning that second fight under any circumstances. You could just as easily say Ali would've gotten a stoppage, if not for the premature bell at round 2.

I agree, Ali leaning on Foreman, and making him support his body helped him exhaust Foreman, but not sure I'd call it "cheating", Foreman's shoving I feel was worse.

 

Holyfield slugged it out with Bowe, Tyson, Mercer, and Lewis. He was intelligent, strong, and durable, outside of being ill or injured, he's damn near impossible to stop. Foreman is a monster but not super human levels above the guys that couldn't move Evander.

If Foreman was that beastly he would have stopped the declined Ali.

 

I actually agree with some of your points, including Dempsey being "easy to hit" as revisionism but you're not doing yourself any favors, with your insults, and aggression. Without them, you'll get your points across much better and people might actually take them at face value.

 

The irony is that he largely abandoned his swarming style to make the gains you claim thus lending even more credence to Cus's rule.

 

Frazier hangs in the mid range, using head movement to bob under and close the distance with hooks. It's not unlike Tyson or Dempsey's swarming. I don't think relentless forward pressure is necessary to count as swarming..because that isn't really how it works. Pressure is more than throwing punches and moving forward. Also...Foreman isn't letting Frazier just walk inside...why would he?

 

Old Foreman was in some ways better than young Foreman, and if anything, had even more power. When making H2H comparisons, you sort of have to consider them as different fighters. I think Holyfield would have issues with young Foreman (but, who wouldn't?), but I still think that's a winnable fight for him. Holyfield at his best had a huuuuuuuge gas tank and if he could get it into the later rounds, he might be able to pull off a stoppage. I also cannot unsee their actual fight, in which Holyfield straight up brawled with Foreman and came out on top of those exchanges, even if he did have to ask his corner if he had any teeth left.

I like old Foreman's chances against Tyson much more than young Foreman's. Old Foreman had patience, and could use the same tactics Holyfield did. I assume they'd be even more effective for old Foreman, who was larger, heavier, and stronger than Holyfield. Young Foreman was wild though. A prime Tyson was much faster with big power (I'll assume Tyson could hit as hard as Lyle) and would definitely get off some good counters. If he gets off some great ones early on and hurts Foreman quick, might set him up to win.

Another point. Did a young Foreman ever fight a quick a starter as Tyson? From the very first punch Foreman threw, Tyson would be looking for a KO off a counter.

 

BULL****
To be competitive you have to win rounds!
George FOREMAN vs Joe FRAZIER 2 | FULL FIGHT | Boxing KNOCKOUTS - YouTube
Haw many did Frazier win?
Avoiding being knocked out by staying out of range and rarely engaging is not being competitive!

 

So you can swarm at mid -range by not closing the distance and spending a good half of the fight on the back foot ,going to the ropes?
Well what do you know? Ali beat Foreman by outswarming him! LOL!

 

A little triflng point that has escaped him!