the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

The cruiserweight Usyk beat was the best division in the sport at the time.

 

In what way? I don’t see it.

He may be a great fighter but he didn’t really prove it beating anyone who had accomplished anything. Mostly a bunch of greenhorns who had all risen to get belts because they were undefeated against … other people who hadn’t done anything.

This is said as gospel and frankly I don’t see it. The heavyweight division was much more competitive IMO, and that’s just off the top of my head.

Is Hunter one of his better scalps? Because at 11-0 he’d have been fighting 8-rounders in the era of Holyfield or DeLeon, etc.

Give me the list of other cruiserweights in Usyk’s time and what they actually did — who they beat who had a real resume other than ‘well I’ve won 11 fights and beat a 15-0 guy (who would never win again)’ like Hunter.

 

Bakole, Ustinov, Povetkin. 3 very good victories.

Hunter is a quality name to have on your resume.

 

You just be joking.

Glowacki, Mchunu, Hunter, Huck, Briedis, Gassiev and Bellew is an amazing win list.

Glowacki was a current title holder, he'd just knocked out Huck.
Mchunu could arguably have beaten Makabu the other week for the WBC belt.
Hunter has proven his quality against Bakole, Ustinov and Povetkin.
Huck speaks for itself.
Briedis has just won the WBSS and is the current divisional champ.
Gassiev had beaten Lebedev, Wlod and Dorticos unifying two titles
Bellew had knocked out Makabu and BJ Penn

The very reason this division was the best in the world at the time is because they were all willing to fight each other without any posturing, without years of building up, without any ducking. They just fought each other.

 

LOL.

Bakole: 11 fights with three wins over fighters who had winning records, none of whom had more than 10 fights at the time. Also injured his shoulder and was one-handed at the end when Hunter won.

Povetkins: It was a draw, not a win for Hunter. Guy had some skill but at this point he’s 40-something and at the end of his rope and no longer able to get away with PED-loading because he’s already been suspended for it twice. Not impressed.

Ustinov: He lost his previous fight and from that point forward he has gone 2-5-1 — the two wins are over stiffs with losing records as is the draw. Whatever he may have ever been, which isn’t much (don’t try to tell me he was ever a legit contender), he was several degrees below that at this point.

You’re really just underscoring my point here.

 

I've underscored it, you're correct. Hunter has 3 good names in his resume and is currently a top 10 HW.

Right now he'd be a good opponent for anyone. If you watch the fight between him and Usyk you'll see back then he was a good opponent for Usyk as well.

 

I’d imagine most times a copule of 11-0 type guys fight they’re good opponents for each other. And they’re both physical talents. But they’re also green, and neither has the experience to take advantage of the mistakes of the other.

As for Hunter being a heavyweight contender, he’s a guy you could put on the No. 10 line if you choose to maybe, but the division right now isn’t terribly deep. He’s No. 2 in WBA but they also have TBA at No. 8. Maybe they can fight an eliminator, lol.

 

I think where we differ in opinion is that you consider it a great division because guys fought each other and I think it was an exciting division because you had a collection of relative nobodies who were willing to fight each other (because there was no money to be made not fighting each other) and one of them emerged on top of the others, which had to happen.

Usyk is a fine fighter, don’t get me wrong. But when a 10-0 guy fights a 17-2 guy, to me that’s a maybe main event on a good Thursday night card in New Jersey, or maybe a good 10-rounder, not a ‘omg I can’t believe these top guys are fighting each other, can’t-miss showdown.’

It underscores the sad state of the sport now. We have 15-0 world champions who are in many cases skilled and exciting but they haven’t learned to fight as professionals. The numbers are ridiculously bad. Some guy from Never-heard-of-it-stan builds a 20-0 record against guys off the street and he’s regarded as a contender or prospect, he steps up and gets beat and you look two years later and he’s 22-8.

I would contrast the guys in Usyk’s cruiserweight stir fry with, say, the Philly middleweights of the 1970s. All very exciting, some guys who had been in the deep end and had tastes of success — Bennie Briscoe and Willie the Worm and Cyclone Hart and Boogaloo Watts, etc. And they all fought each other. Bennie proved to be the best of the lot but when he stepped up there was a whole different next level: these guys basically couldn’t beat the top, top guys but they could damned sure fight because they all had a wealth of experience. With Usyk’s cruisers, there is no next level and they haven’t learned all the things it takes to make them really good fighters because who would they learn it from?

 

Jesse James Leija v Ivan Robinson (10 rounds)

Round 1: 10-9 Leija
Round 2: 10-9 Leija
Round 3: 10-10 Even
Round 4: 10-9 Leija
Round 5: 10-9 Leija
Round 6: 10-9 Robinson
Round 7: 10-9 Leija
Round 8: 10-8 Leija (scores a knockdown)
Round 9: 10-9 Leija
Round 10: 10-9 Leija

Total: 99-91 Leija (actual scores: 97-92, 97-92 and 96-93 all for Leija)

You gotta feel for Robinson. He was a sharp-boxing, speedy fighter with a good gas tank and good work-rate who fought aggressively. But he just lacked a punch. Man, what he could have done and might have become with one. When he beat Gatti twice I thought he was something but it didn't become clear until later and against others who just had that bit more. The crowd during this fight I thought was strangely muted, but I enjoyed it very much with the fast clean punching these two were providing us with. I thought it was a good fight with Leija's extra pop being the decisive factor in most rounds.

 

What divisions did you think were better at the time?

 

Ones where the top fighters had more than 11 fights. Or were better than 17-2.

Look at the end of year annual Ring rankings at heavyweight, middleweight and welterweight to name three. You see a lot of guys who have actually accomplished things other than ‘well the 11-0 guy beat the 10-0 guy.’

Seriously, if two guys — one 11-0, one 17-2 — fight this weekend somewhere at super middle or lightweight, do you figure the winner is an elite guy who needs to be in the championship picture?

 

I wasn't trying to debate you/prove you wrong. I was just wondering which divisions at the time you felt were stronger.

 

No I think we differ more on the value of a numerical record.

 

So on what basis, for instance, is Bakole a good win for Hunter?

He had an 11-0 record. Three wins over guys with winning records of about as many fights as him. None of them were contenders. So eight fights over guys with losing records who never did anything of note.

If he had 25 fights with four wins over contenders and six more over journeymen who proven themselves, would that not be a better resume?

I agree that if a guy is 25-0 with all the wins over guys off the street, all debut guys or 1-5 records, that’s not meaningful. But neither is being 11-0 with Bakole’s opponents — yet you cite him as a meaningful win for Hunter. So what’s the basis for that?

To get back to what I mentioned earlier with Ray Leonard’s record: was his resume not enhanced by beating contenders like Randy Shields and Pete Ranzany and Andy Price and even Tony Chiaverini?

I think more fights against proven competition — not fellow novices but guys who have been around — is going to give a fighter a chance to learn. Mike Tyson was better for fighting Quick Tillis because Tillis was a guy who had been around the block a few times and thus gained experience and knowledge. Do you agree with me that Tillis is a better win for Tyson than an 11-0 guy with absolutely no win of note was for Hunter?

 

You can pick apart any resume you want. Any resume. If you don't see the value in Hunter as a name in a resume that's your prerogative. If you don't think the CW division was on fire, that's your prerogative.

But maybe just watch the fights. Instead of being obsessed by the numbers on the records.