The Greatest Heavyweights before 1930.

Because I think Tunney beats Jeffries head to head rather handily.I'm of the opinion that Tunney was superior to Corbett and a faded Corbett was in front against a prime Jeffries going into the 23rd rd.Tunney imo was more durable than Corbett,a better boxer, and hit harder.

 

So you rate HWs based on arbitrary H2H opinion, instead of objective resume?

 

That is true but Langford pursued Johnson, much in the same way Johnson pursued Tommy Burns, around the world for a title fight, because both champions during their reign actively denied and evaded the respective challengers. While Johnson did defeat Langford at one point, Johnson had a 30 pound advantage and Langford had just begun his move up to fight higher weight opponents.

 

I try and factor all the intangibles in.I don't say its infallible or that I am necessarily correct,but it's my way and I believe it to be objective . If your knickers are in a twist because I ranked Tunney over Jeffries that's too bad ,you're free to totally disagree and ,if you wish give your reasons,and I will carefully read them and evaluate them,if I find them compelling enough I will change my order.Till then --------

 

Johnson agreed to fight Langford and McVey in a 2 fight deal in Australia it was not his fault public pressure on the promoter caused him to cancel the fights.
Johnson also agreed to fight Langford in the US ,provided his price of $30,000for defending his title was met.Joe Woodman, Langford's manager could not come up with his share of the posted cash bond to ensure the fight took place.This is all public knowledge and can be found in Adam Pollack's first class 2 volume bio of Johnson,highly recommended, as is Clay Moyle's book on Langford
Johnson also signed to defend against Jeannette twice in NY but the NYAC vetoed both attempts to stage the fight and threatened any promoter who did so with the suspension of his licence.
So how exactly did he evade and deny his best challengers their title shots?
ps Langford did not follow Johnson anywhere,he wasnt in the Uk when Johnson was ,trying to get a fight with Billy Wells,nor was he in Australia when Johnson fought Burns and Lang,nor France when Johnson defended against Moran.
He was in France when Johnson defended against Jim Johnson,but only because he was fighting against Jeannette the day before.

Whilst on his 1 st trip to the Uk .Langford described Johnson as the best fighter in the world.
Nobody knows just what Langford and Johnson weighed for their 1906 fight as neither man weighed in.Let us assume for a moment the "guestimates"of 156lbs for Sam and 185lbs for Jack are correct.Moyle, probably the foremost expert on Langford states Sam's best weight was between 175 and 180lbs,that's a minimum of19lbs and a maximum of24lbs
Johnson stated he was in the condition of his life for the Jeffries fight ,for which he weighed 208lbs that's a 23lbs disparity.So both men had reasonable parity when they fought.ie Johnson would always be the bigger heavier man.
Its also true Langford had not fought many heavies in1906 against that he had engaged in more contests. When they met Johnson floored him twice for long 9 counts and broke his nose.
It's true Langford improved after this,but its equally true that so did Johnson!

 

Fair enough, it's up to you to pick your criteria.

I just think that Tunney did way too little at HW to make his case strong. He beat past prime Dempsey twice, once almost stopped and basically nothing else. You can say all you want about Jeffries having some weaker defenses like Munroe or Kennedy, but Tunney had one other defense against mediocre Heeney. Other than that, he beat Risko and blind Greb, nothing else.

Jeffries resume is much deeper. I'd say that Fitzsimmons and Corbett wins alone are enough to push him ahead of Tunney, but then you also have a win over Ruhlin, two wins over Sharkey and beating some good contenders before the title (Griffin, Armstrong, even Goddard was a good win, though he was clearly diminished).

 

I really appreciate the depth of your response and admit I was not aware of the vast majority of this. I was aware Langford didn't follow Johnson in Johnsons efforts to fight Wells or Burns, I was under the impression he followed him multiple times after Johnson won the title. Thank you for the reading recommendations, I will be sure to give the Langford biography a read, he and Barbados Walcott are to me two of the most fascinating fighters. I was not aware that the weights I listed were approximations and not the real number. I still find it that if they had fought in 1910 the fight would've been far more competitive on both sides, even with Johnsons prime conditioning and agree that both improved substantially following their only fight.

 

Wait a minute...Dempsey gets all kinds of grief for "ducking" Greb, but no one...NO ONE...has Greb on their list?
And let's not forget Greb Bolivianated Tunney when Harry had TWO EYES and not ONE EYE. Yet Tunney is
on most lists.

Either Greb was a legitimate threat to Dempsey or he wasn't. I'm taking names here...for future "Dempsey got mauled by
Greb" threads.

Sad, very sad.

 

Personally for me it's that I know Greb is an ATG and I am positive that he could throw down with anyone of the top ten of any list in the thread. But we have nothing beyond testimonies of his greatness, all of which I think are genuine in their account. Obviously everyone knows there is no footage of Greb, and thats why I can't rank him in a way that I feel is valid.

 

For a newbie you make sense. I applaud you, young man.

 

Actually won Schmeling against Uzcudun previous to his first world championship.

Here could be also listed Carpentier. Maybe also Firpo, Mitchel, Willard and Killrain.

 

A gracious and fair minded post!

 

Tunney beat over 34 men who would qualify as heavies back in Jeffries day, ie175lbs and over . the majority by stoppage. Two of Jeffries best wins are over a man who weighed less than that, Fitz.
Weinert was a very clever boxer,Tunney beat him on points and also stopped him.
Heeney was a legitimate contender ,that year he had beaten Delaney and drawn with Sharkey,the previous year he had drawn with Uzcudun and beaten Bud Gorman.
What had Corbett done in the immediate years before he challenged Jeff?
Tunney was the only man to stop Gibbons.
He also stopped Spalla and Bartley Madden.
Goddard was 40 years old, way back then that was old!
Corbett was coming out of retirement on both occasions and he was totally washed up for their second fight.Tommy Ryan his second had made an arrangement that if/when Jim got into trouble Ryan would wave a fan signifying it was time to stop it.
Jeffries best wins are over Ruhlin who had a melt down after sampling a belly buster ,a 37 years old under 175pound Fitz and a near 40 under 175lbs Fitz, both times Fitz was coming out of extended periods inactivity.
Corbett who hadn't won a fight for years , and Sharkey who gave him life and death.

 

For Heavies,
1. Jack Dempsey
2. Sam Langford
3. Jack Johnson
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
5. Gene Tunney
6. Jim Jeffries
7. James Corbett
8. John L. Sullivan
9. Tommy Gibbons
10. Harry Wills