Cus D'amato - No Swarmer Beats Foreman?

But we agree Foreman would win anyway. However my words DO seem to cover not knowing the outcome.
But I should amend my statement. Given the stylistic & size advantage AND Frazier being past prime, we agree mere shoving would not have made the difference.
Frazier as a swarmer ha a stylistic advantage over Ali-whose absolute peak was years ago in the 1960's.

It seems extreme to say Frazier was *ever* not motivated. You should watch the fight again-& save me the tedium lol!
But I dunno that you could fairly attribute him bein unmotivated when the rhythm fighter could get into none because of y'know...133!

I will grant you that in absolute terms Frazier was likely not much different.
But given his swarming style, high blood pressure, deteriorating vision...Unless you can show he was in somewhat worse shape in their 2nd fight than in Manilla, the difference of approaching 2 years when already past prime after the FOTC should have given him less absolute capacity.

But the circumstances coalesced to allow him to wring out another great fight.
Nothing more important than not being constantly hugged & pulled down!

 

You’ve made fair points as to why Frazier had to be viewed as that much lesser than he was in Jamaica and even more so going further back to his prime at 205 lb.

The other aspect I will agree on and have notes myself before - at least by fights end, Foreman appeared notably fatigued IMO.

Where we differ is that I believe George fought the rematch with more reserve. Of course that’s no biggie, and view points on that can vary. I feel George started more aggressively in Jamaica and when he hurt and downed Joe, he went for broke -

I would also include Foreman’s shoving and manhandling as being less prominent in the rematch - as if Foreman was trying to discipline himself and fight without same - BUT it began to creep back in even in the rematch - and I believe George was warned for same in one of the last few rounds.

I’m of the opinion that Foreman’s shove/manhandle was totally illegal. I also believe it gave Foreman a more significant advantage than many afford. That’s not to say without it that Joe necessarily beats George but its absence would a fight between Frazier and Foreman that bit more competitive.

Qawi was doing relatively well against Foreman, easily landing punches in close. Again, the Foreman shove began to rear its head to keep Qawi at bay. And also, by the time Qawi said enough is enough, Big George certainly looked like he could do with a much needed rest. He was definitely getting tired IMO. Anyway…..

 

There is an excuse for every Frazier defeat.
Ali 2. Ali pulled his head down.
Foreman 1.Frazier wasnt in shape,and had health problems
Foreman 2.Frazier was not in shape .
Ali3.Frazier had eye problems.
Why wasnt Frazier in shape? At214 lbs he was 9 lbs heavier than he had been for FOTC but he had weighed 209lbs when steam rolling Bob Foster a year earlier.
Frazier weighed 215 1.4lbs for Ali in Manila,Ali 224.5lbs who was the furthest over his optimum weight?Ali.
Frazier had eye problems.
Harry Greb went blind in one eye after the August 1921 fight with Kid Norfolk ,he had a further
90 fights losing just 7 of them.
Among his victims were;
Tommy Loughran x4
CharleyWeinert
GeneTunney
Jimmy Slattery
Maxie Rosenbloom
Mickey Walker
Tiger Flowers
Bryan Downey
Jeff Smith
Lou Bogash
Tommy Gibbons
Jeff Smith
Johnny Wilson x3
Sam Langford went blind in one eye after his 1917 fight with Fred Fulton,among those he went on to beat are.
Jim Johnson x6
Joe Jeannette x 2
Kid Norfolk x2
Jeff Clark 4x
Tiger Flowers[Langford had only partial sight in his good eye by this time].
Sam McVey
George Godfrey
Young Peter Jackson x2
Jim Flynn multiple times
Jeff Clark x4

After 3.5 years out of the ring Ali came back to fight Quarry,sparring with Blue Lewis for that fight Ali sustained a hairline fracture of a rib,he fought Quarry and won.
Ali v Norton 1.2 Ali sustained a broken jaw in the 2nd rd and lost a close dec.
In addition to his enforced 3 and a half years of absence Ali had hand problems for his comeback fights.My point being all fighters have health problems and injuries to contend with.
Frazier was 29 years old when he fought Foreman the first time,in my humble opinion the main reason for his decline/defeat was lack of combat against real opposition.After the FOTC Joe came back to defend against two unranked plugs, Stander and Frazier,to overcome them he only needed decent condition,Joe had scaled his personal Everest in defeating his predecessor and only real rival Ali,his drive and motivation must have taken a big hit after that memorable night in MSG1971.
I think Frazier's health problems are somewhat overstated.
I dont see much difference bewteen the Frzier that beat Jery Quarry the first time and the Smoking Joe that repeated the feat in their second fight.
Question,if Frazier was so shot for the Foreman fight in Kingston,how come he managed to put up such a great fight against Ali in Manila?
I also think prime for prime he never beats Foreman or Liston.To fight them with his style is tantamount to the Light Brigade charging the Russian guns at Balaclava.

 

Can’t keep a good man down!

 

I’m trying to be more encouraging toward a differing opinion to my own.. but it has often appeared to be the case, to me, that a great many posters want to get angry with things outside of their own view.

 

I think the word “swarmer” and the encouragement of the wrong interpretation of the internet generation embracing new terms like “style advantage” came into use long after the demise of Cus.

 

You make some very salient observations on the 2 Foreman/Frazier fights, of which I agree, as to the shoving , big George used that almost exclusively in his early career, well remember him pushing Kirkman literally to the floor as the two met in mid ring just after the bell had sounded, Foreman got reprimanded but poor Boone must have been discombobulated, not a good way to start a fight, also Boone was pushed and pulled around the ring for most of the short lived fight.
George at this period was too fond of that style of fighting, he would extend both his arms, gloves open ( strange ) and either push or parry oncoming punches , thus leaving openings for follow up swings and hooks, you could say somewhat illegal, but then again it was a proven strategy that worked time and again, and even contributed to a degree to his title winning effort.
stay safe guys.

 

Do we even have the source of this statement from Cus???

I don’t think the word “swarmer” was being used back then.

 

The closest I heard was Cus would show Mike the Frazier vs Foreman fights to give a point to how his style would lose to Foreman-like fighters, may have contributed to a Foreman fight not happening in the 90s. (I knew both avoided each other)

Health problems was an issue by Manila, Joe already couldn’t see out of the eye that wasn’t being punched.

 

Be good to see that actually turn up. It would be unusual for a trainer to make absolutes like that when it’s their job to plan tactical strategies for each style of fighter to overcome all other types of styles.

To listen to Angelo or Clancy or Manny during commentary they certainly gave the impression they know what any given fighter should be doing in a situation.

 

Yes we “heard” and people “say” it. But where is it? And where did “it” come from??

Trainers might say this kind of guy is “wrong for you”, as it would be harder to win than against another type of fighter,,, but that’s not saying there is “not” a way.

Good trainers know what is required to overcome each style. And if it’s worth doing. Or if something more suitable should be found.

It’s saying, “there are easier fights”. It’s not saying can’t be done.

if Cus or any hall of fame trainer said that I would like to see the proof of it.

Everyone says Cus said this…but nobody has any proof of it.

 

In this 2003 article Frank Lotierzo claims that Bobby Goodman told him that Don King told him that Steve Lott told him that:

Tyson and Cus D'Amato used to watch the Frazier-Foreman fight over and over. He continued saying that Tyson loved that fight because he was awed by Foreman's power and Frazier's toughness and how he kept getting up after every knockdown. He also said that Lott told King that Cus sat alongside Tyson saying, “It's suicide against Foreman if you're short and fight a swarming attacking style like Marciano or Frazier,” never figuring that Foreman could be a possible Tyson opponent down the road. He said that Cus said the only fighters who had a chance against Foreman were, tall rangy fighters who could fight him from a distance while moving away from him, and no way any swarmer could beat Foreman by going to him.

https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/articles-of-2003/1145-why-we-never-saw-foreman-tyson

Not sure how much credit I want to put in a quote which has been passed from one person to another that many times before becoming public.

 

I'd give Tyson the best chance. Can't think of anyone else who could. Dempsey is like a mini Tyson, but would be too small. Marciano is too small & a slow starter. Tua is heavy, strong & durable - but too short (in height & reach) & limited to beat Big George.