Who Would Beat A Prime Leonard At Welterweight?

SRL probably doesn't have a top 3 resume, but he doesn't need one for me. The greats he did beat( in the different ways he did it), and my eye test, tell me he's a lock for my h2h top three.

It's almost not fair when a guy has that the much God given athletic ability, and is also pretty damn mentally strong. Many guys have one or the other in spades, few have both, SRL had both.

If he fights them 5 times and can learn from each, it is sequential, nobody other than SRR. Even that I would not bet on. lIf they are one off, fought in isolation, the list is a tad bigger (SRR, Duran, Hearns, Armatrong, maybe Kid, even less the Napoles tier). Point is, the list is very small and possibly non-existent.

I know I'm in the minority, but Whitakerr, the best WW version, badly frustrates anything but a peak SRL. It would likely look like a fight Pea was cagey enough to win, but lost because he wasn't "quite" active enough and wasn't the "golden child" of the sport/division. Just my view.

 

I know we've been down this road before, but I have to once again take issue with your line of reasoning. Is it your opinion that guys who are recorded to weigh 147 or thereabouts on the night are functionally the same as welterweights of the past? So guys like Acelino Freitas, Zahir Raheem, and mid-2000's Jorge Barrios?

 

Sugar might beat most of them

but I think he could be upset either by getting outworked or knocked out in a surprise upset

Ray proved to me he has the susceptibility of getting hurt but the ones that didnt finish the job were either inept (Lalonde, Howard)

while the ones that were NOT inept (Taylor, Camacho, Norris) easily beat him or took him out

It would take a welterweight version of Terry Norris or a slickster like Floyd to do the ugly deed

someone with loads of raw speed (Meldrick Taylor, Oscar De Lahoya) could also beat him

and also a powerful slugger who doesnt show him too much respect (Lloyd Honeyghan)

Donald Curry never proved to me that he was worthy of his premature #1 p4p ranking by the magazines. I dont think he's good enough to beat Sugar

 

I don't think there's any weight class today that's "functionally the same" as the old fashioned 147 pound weight class.

There's a modern "welterweight" class that has the same name. That weight class has bigger fighters than the old one had.

 

Ok, I can get on board with the first sentence.

So, could you name a fighter from, say, the 60's or 70's who would be a fair match-up for the guys I mentioned, strictly in terms of size? Emile Griffith? LMR?

 

I don't think there's an exact equivalent:

http://basementgymboxing.blogspot.com/2014/01/fight-night-boxing-weights-list-of.html?m=1

Modern welters are entering the ring in the mid-150s, which is bigger than old welters entered the ring, but smaller than old middles. A few are old-middleweight-sized. A few are smaller. Most look in the upper half of the 150s.

 

Just to put my own stance out there: I don't think it should be thought of as only coming down to the pre and post rehydration era. I've always maintained that these things are case-by-case. For example, LaMotta and Tiger were arguably bigger than Monzon and Benvenuti. Fighters from the very distant past like Mike Gibbons and Dave Shade are really closer to what I would call welterweight.

Part of the difference for me when it comes to this era is that no matter how advanced sports recovery is, the fighters I mentioned still had to make lightweight, not welterweight.

 

There's going to be a range in both. Some guys will be big for their weight class. Some will be better at making weight than others.

If we take averages, though, I think you'll find that the modern guys are bigger. And it's probably an advantage, since the practice of extreme drying out hasn't stopped.

 

Yes, we've discussed that list before. But I think those numbers can be slightly misleading.

If we take an oft-cited case like Antonio Margarito and compare him to Ray Robinson, we have the following:

At age 24, Margarito was 149 for Six Heads Lewis.
Robinson was fighting LaMotta for the fifth time at 150.

When Margarito was 155 for Kyvelos, Robinson, at a similar age, was also routinely fighting above 150.

At 30 when Margarito was 160, Robinson had begun a full fledged campaign at middleweight, fighting on occasion above 160. His last middleweight defense was at 157 against Graziano.

Bear in mind, Margarito could have been fully clothed for his unofficial weigh-ins.

In my opinion, if Robinson is a welterweight, then so is Margarito. I think Robinson could have prolonged his stay at 147 with the advances today, but proof of a significant difference is not really compelling.

 

You think if you matched the bell curves up, the old welters would be the same size range as the modern welters?

I'm not denying that size will vary from fighter to fighter in either category. I'm talking averages.

 

No, because it's not old welters versus modern welters, it's case-by-case. Like you said, there's a range; Ray Robinson is slightly bigger than Kid Gavilan.

I think Margarito and Robinson are in the same size range. It's debatable whether Gavilan belongs with them.

 

Right, but the ranges can still be compared. So (for example) Robinson might be considered a bigger welter in the old system than he would be today. And the biggest welters today might be larger than the biggest ones of the 1940s.

 

Probably because cases like Chavez Jr., Gatti, and Jacobs skew the data. Margarito is already the prime example of a big, modern welterweight. He's bigger than Brook and Porter.

Comparing eras wouldn't really bear any meaningful fruit, not for this debate at least. There have always been Margarito-sized fighters. "Welterweight" is a nominal designation. We have to compare fighters.

 

The consequence of your position, I think, would be that next day weigh ins and modern approaches to rehydration have no effect on the ability of larger people to make weight. Or at best, that they just make it a little easier for the same sized people as before to make weight.

 

OK, let's take another look at this. It depends on how you define greatness, no?

Here's one criteria: Leonard didn't have as many fights as some of the other guys mentioned, which is typical of modern day fighters, no? And Leonard ruled a tough crowd. Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler.He beat them all. And I was quite impressed with his, how shall we say, devastating knockout of Donny Lalonde at super-middleeight. Who can forget that thud as Lalonde hit the canvas. Of course, something is wrong when a guy like Lalonde can be called world champion.