70s Foreman was a bit overrated IMO

I'm not even saying that's a valid excuse for Foreman. I'm just saying if you can write off his win over Frazier because Frazier underestimated him, you should be able to do the same for Foreman underestimating Ali. It makes the analysis look very inconsistent.

 

Well that isn't very accurate. A.larger person tires out quicker, especially in hot environments. Not only that, but Young's cagey defensive style contributed to his loss of stamina. He blocked many shots and made him miss.

 

If you ever boxed, you’d learn that what I’m saying is true and it wouldn’t take long.

 

I think just about everyone agree with you that Frazier wasn't at his best that night, but I think you undersell just how devastatingly superior Foreman was. That no one else came close to doing that over Frazier's whole career says something.

I'd also add that the stoppage of Chuvalo was impressive. But, yeah, only looking at his 70's career he isn't top 10 imo, but I think most would agree with that.

 

Yeah I did. And I was said is a fact for any biological life form lol. Bigger animals/people get tired quicker when they exert themselves. It is also a fact that Young was a slippery defensive fighter who made Foreman tire faster with his counters.

 

Small reptiles get tired quicker than large mammals, bro.

I’ll call your view the inverse weightclass theory. Heavyweights need to be protected from straweights so they don’t gas.

 

I just watched Foreman - Young. I thought GF fought a good controlled fight most of the time and JY fought a good fight too. The thing I noticed, but haven't seen discussed was that JY had a nice "Philadelphia" left hook. He was catching GF with it in close throughout the fight and though it wasn't going to knock GF out, it stunned him, sometimes turned his head, and got his attention. When GF would throw a looping right hand in close, JY would make him pay with a left hook or two, sometimes three. JY also had a decent right hand.

I don't know what was happening in GF's corner, the video I watched didn't show between rounds much. They did show one late in the fight where GF looked to be walking away from the corner and Clancy looked upset, maybe screaming at GF. That might have been a big distraction for GF, and might have contributed to his tiredness in the last two rounds? Anyway, good fight. GF showed better stamina than any fight I've seen him fight in the 70s. JY showed good skills and recovery ability. When he was hurt early in the 7th round, he recovered and probably won the last 35-40 seconds of the round.

 

Did Foreman make any crucial mistakes or series of mistakes that you believe cost him the fight? How winnable was it for him?

 

I thought GF fought a good fight most of the time. JY was a tough guy to fight, defensive first, but quick hands with a good right and a nice hook. GF, according to the guy who was talking with Cosell was hitting with an open glove a lot. The video I was watching wasn't real clear, I couldn't see it for myself, but a lot of GF's punches did sound like open glove slaps. Those make lots of noise but they don't usually do much damage. If GF was making any obvious mistake that would probably be it, he should have turned his punches over, closed his fist, and hit with his knuckles. And, if GF and Clancy were arguing in the corner, that would be a problem too. It was a winnable fight for both of them. JY just did more things right that night.

 

What do you think happens if Foreman turns the pressure/stakes way up and tries to steamroll Young like some people argue he should have done?

 

Hard to say. He might have caught JY and stopped him (not likely IMO) or he might not have caught him and then gassed out quick. Also he would have left himself more open to JY and JY's punches were affecting GF too. JY turned GF's head a few times and made him take a step back. There is a reason that fighters don't forget defense and just try to knock their opponent out, what comes back at them hurts too.

 

I agree his stamina, was nothing to write home about, but when he fought Peralta, he exerted far more energy using his seek and destroy style, than he did fighting conservatively against Young, yet he looked far worse against the latter.

I legitimately don't even know what you're trying to say here, nor how to respond to it. Foreman's trainer, reporters, and hospital spokesmen all say the heat effected him enough to be admitted to the ICU. We have workers and people in the arena confirm "ring lights created more heat at ringside than in any recent bout except for the Ali-Joe Bugner title match"

On the other hand, we have YOU who dksab, say other wise. I wonder who to believe

You're an idiot if you think the toronto 5 was a "money grab". It was a circus.

1. Neither of the 5 opponents were household names, nor could they draw a dime, so I doubt it was a "money grab"

2. Alonzo Johnson was beyond shot and retired, and 13 years earlier in his prime, was demolished in a single round by Cleveland Williams without landing a blow.

"For Ali, the victory was one more in a career of unbelievable triumphs. For Foreman, the roof caved in.

Following the loss, Foreman disappeared for a while, then re-emerged with an idea that was part circus and part WWE. On April 26, 1975, in Toronto, Foreman fought an exhibition. Actually, make that five exhibitions. The idea was apparently that Foreman would fight five men, knock them all out, recapture his mental edge and thrill the public watching on Wide World of Sports. The reality was it was just stupid."

“The thing is a carnival and it’s not pleasant to see,” said Howard Cosell, who had a habit of announcing things that were unpleasant to see."

"And it was weird. What was supposed to be an epic return of an incredible bad ass turned into a psychological horror show. Foreman clearly had made no strides in recovering from his loss to Ali and was — for the entire exhibition — as unlikable a jerk as you will ever see. Aside from the five fighters, Foreman punched an opposing cornerman, and a couple of his own cornermen, including his cousin.

And all the while, Ali mocked him from the safety of ringside. Rarely will you ever see a man’s psyche so exposed and battered in just over an hour. And Foreman’s psyche was not to improve for two decades more. "
Source: https://the-cauldron.com/we-were-stupider-foreman-fights-five-b48d09b686c8#:~:text=On April 26, 1975, in,on Wide World of Sports.

Also you continue to avoid the other part of my question. Is following into a deep depression, announcing a retirement, and making countless excuses for a first loss, the actions of a healthy man?

 

Ali showing up and totally mind****ing him, basically just to be a dick, was pretty humorous. I like how Ali walks out before the end of the last fight, so Foreman can't even come over to respond to him.

 

I think Ali sensed the awkwardness, and just shittalked Foreman the entire night, to try to cover it up.

It's just depressing to see how far Foreman had fallen off the wagon, after one loss.

 

Ko 2 over Fraizer. Ko1 over Norton, and TKO 5 over Lyle are great results.

Roman was KO'd in one round. Not a good fighter but a great result.

The Ali match ruined Foreman for a while, that's the fighter Young beat.