Did Nino Valadez ever deserve a shot at Rocky?

Johnson was being considered a leading contender for the Rock until Moore beat him the final time.

 

I think we’re talking apples and oranges here.

If Rocky has 20 defenses he’d probably have some soft touches. And if Cockell is a No. 2, sheesh.

Suffice it to say that it was a VERY weak period at heavyweight and Rocky’s term was relatively short. He fought basically light heavyweights and old men … and some half of those defenses were light heavyweights who were old men. It’s like if Victor Galindez or Mike Rossman at 180 was a No. 1 contender at heavyweight (yes Moore and Charles were better than the two 175s I mentioned but they were 175s who just had a couple extra happy meals and in those days that made you a ‘legit’ heavyweight).

 

Holmes didn't have some "soft touches." He ducked guys and bragged about it. We just had a thread on it in which some of the quotes were produced.

Holmes fought drug addicts, fat guys, zombies, and bums, and refused to fight mandatories or unify.

Really pathetic.

 

Not going to hijack the thread and go down that route. Start another. Or revive the old one.

 

Not hijacking it at all...I am making a valuable companions. Simple point, well made and easy to understand: Marciano fought all #1 and 1 #2 contenders, and champs have gotten away with doing a lot less.

Or, let me say it a different way.

HE HAD A RIGHT TO A VOLUNTARY.

Or another:

HE DID NOT HAVE TO FIGHT THE #1 EVERY TIME.

 

Nor did he; as you noted, he fought the No. 2.

But there wasn’t much to choose from.

If light heavyweights (old ones) and old men (small heavyweights) were ranked 1 and 2 throughout his reign, it was a bad time all around.

If most champions had fought Cockell, it would be considered a laugher, For Rocky, that’s a No. 2 contender. Cockell got nocked out early by a 162-pound Turpin a couple of years before fighting Marciano.

 

Baker? Satterfield?

Baker beat Valdes twice. Satterfield beat Valdes decisively in their meeting.

Valdes should have gotten a shot over Cockell, but lost ten fights from 1952 to 1956.

Is being 1 inch taller but about the same weight as Baker put him somehow ahead of Baker while losing twice to him?

 

I know all this. Anyone who has access to Boxrec knows all this. I am not sure why is hard to understand that we are talking about the fact that Valdez was #1 contender. Please go back and look at the post where I said "they didn't have the selling points of being 6'3" and #1," what whatever slight variation I said.

 

I do not think that is true of Moore.
From 1955 on, he had a strong tendency to fight in the 190's.
Occasionally cutting weight to LHW, or a few times heavier that 200 lbs.
As far as I know he never appeared overweight.

We are talking about Valdes here, when he beat Nino 2 fights before he faced Rocky, he weighed 196.5.
By this stage of his illustrious career, he was a natural HW by the standards of the day, like Rocky was.
He even needed to make 6 trips to the scale to make 175/LHW in 1957.

Longest time as crowned & uncrowned LHW champion.
The straight up lifetime KO record.
Fought professionally from 1935-1963!
Actually had a superb record as he got older: no real notable decline in results overall, even as he was fighting HWs most of the time later-& retired at nearly 49.

[url]https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/8995[/url]
Moore was an incredible fighter & man.

 

Archie is one of my favorite fighters. But the fact remains that he was the preeminent light heavyweight of his era and was regarded as ‘the light heavyweight champ’ and not ‘the top heavyweight contender’

Archie was amazing and one of my favorite fighters.

But the fact that the sitting light heavyweight champion was considered the top contender at the time speaks to it being a poor era for the heavyweight division. That’s my only point.

Generally there are more serious true heavyweight contenders over a several-year period than there were in Rocky’s time.

 

I do not disagree that it was a weaker era-but not to a large degree.
The main challengers for Louis for most of his reign were not superb, & the guys Rocky fought were the best at the end of Joe's reign.
And the time immediately after Marciano was not very strong for a few years.

Could a LHW contend as well as Moore did in the few years before or after Marciano's championship?
Yes, at least when you consider he lost against Rocky...

But the only thing I was contesting was that Moore was "just a Happy Meal above LHW" lol!
Even accounting for that phrase being a sight overstatement, his weight at HW-both actual & muscle mass (considering he was not overweight, if he had just fattened up like Cockell that would not be a natural HW of the time) was not at all light for the era.
Clearly averaging a greater weight than Marciano at HW.

 

Holmes didn’t beat anyone as good as Moore or Walcott his whole reign. Era couldn’t have been that bad.

 

Cockell really didn't deserve a shot over Valdes. Valdes wasn't in postion for long. Its not a bad duck nor is it a case for a fighter missng out on his top 3 contenders! But modern histroarians would like see wee how Rocky would do vs a man Valdes size, weight and reach. If they fought AND Rocky won we'd hear a lot about how big and strong Valdes was in an attempt to " bulid " Rocky up, pun intended.

 

Oh stop. Moore was like 64-4 at Hw. How many actual HWs have his kind of resume? Let’s not pretend he was just some blown up LHW. He was literally one of the best ever at Heavy. I’d stack his scalps against just about any contender ever who didn’t win the belt. Especially anyone 70s and up. The era had great fighters that happened to be smaller. It’s not just this era. Holmes was beaten by a LHW. Former MWs in Jones Byrd and Toney moved up and won belts and even now Usyk (more of a natural classical Hw but even so) a cruiser is the best fighter there is. Heck Evander who faught everyone in the 90s did pretty well for himself. Are the 90s weak when so many tiny men reigned?

 

As far as the Cockell argument goes…wasn’t that good I agree but for gods sake at least he had an argument to fight for the Belt compared to the bums who recieved title shots over the last twenty years