Explain Fitzsimmons vs Jeffries 2 to me

Bob Fitzsimmons was an all time great with elite skill level and maintained his physical conditioning well into old age. He had also been winning fights at heavy for some time. Jeffries was way less experienced

 

I had read an article that stated that Fitz wanted to use plaster of paris on his hand wraps and Jeffries had agreed to it, as incredible as that sounds. Regarding their conversation in the ring prior to the knockout, I read that Fitz had broken the knuckles on both hands very badly and for all purposes his hands were completely useless for fighting, so he asked Jeff to knock him out.

Incidentally, it is worth noting that a well-known sportswriter (can't recall his name offhand) was at ringside for both the second Jeffries-Fitzsimmons fight and the 1919 Willard-Dempsey fight, and wrote that Fitz gave Jeffries a worse beating in the first round of their fight than Dempsey gave Willard.

 

They were not investigated, as the cornermen of the old Fritz threw the gloves to the crowd before the team of Jeffries was able to check these, as they wanted to hide something. This is all pointed in the biography of Jeffries.

 

BOTH gloves and wraps were inspected pre fight, in the ring, by police officials and Jeffries respectively.

Boxrec cites that it was later reported that Fitz used electrical tape as wraps - I have NOT seen the source contemporary report for this claim.

Finally, what is the source for the claim that Fitz threw his gloves upon Jeffries asking to see Fitz’s gloves after the fight? Just Jeffries himself perhaps?

There’s also the problem of the so called “evidence” being received by any Tom, Dick or Harry who could’ve easily come back with the damning “evidence”.

Some reports state that Jeffries, perhaps due to distress and upset from his injuries - left the ring immediately and hat to be called back - that doesn’t sound like someone fixated on checking Fitz’s gloves post fight.

 

This was already dealt with on the thread The Best British Boxer Ever - I think it was called.

For one thing, Jeffries BIO is not a first hand, third party, contemporary source. Jeff apparently also claimed in one of his BIOs that he was drugged for the Johnson fight. Do you subscribe to that claim based only on Jeff’s word?

Due respect but you don’t provide proofs of what you claim - while at the same time ignoring the legit proofs provided to you (eg contemporary newspaper fight report).

Simple request: At least quote the passages from Jeff’s BIO in which he details the request to check Fitz’s gloves after the fight and Ftiz’s actions thereafter - or any other obvious details from Jeff’s BIO pertaining to the claim of loaded gloves or such.

You’re resting a LOT on that BIO but haven’t ONCE directly quoted it. Have you read the BIO yourself or is this case of your reading that it was mentioned in Jeff’s BIO?

 

So the same legend about Fitzsimmons cheating with his gloves is still alive on this board? We have absolutely no evidences of him cheating, so we can't just assume he did because of the damage Jeffries sustained (which was greatly exaggarated by later reports, it seems that Jeffries got facial injury but I doubt it was "worse beating in the first round of their fight than Dempsey gave Willard".)

 

Maybe it was worse, if only because it has been well established that the reports of Willard's injuries against Dermpsey have themselves been well established to have been much overstated.

 

We've seen Willard being knocked down hundreds of times in the first round by Dempsey. Nobody, not even Jeffries would be able to went through that and win the fight. As far as I know, Jeffries wasn't even knocked down once in this fight.

He might suffer more serious facial injury, but injuries usually have little to do with taken punishment. One punch can cut your mouth, break your nose or eyebrow.

 

The papers say Fitz tossed the gloves to the crowd. That happened.

 

There were tests done with plaster of paris poured into gloves by Boxing Illustrated in the 60's after some allegations made by Kearns over Dempseys win at Toledo. The study found that the hardened paris would cut and break in the users hands after a short period of time......

 

Yes, as per the report, Fitz did throw his gloves to the crowd, one to the left, one to the right. It was also reported that he announced it to be his last fight - so the glove toss might be seen as an associated gesture.

If one thinks there was evidence of loading contained inside the gloves, they would have to 1) assume they were loaded AFTER police inspection 2) believe that Fitz somehow felt safe tossing the “evidence” to random spectators.

Fitz punching extraordinarily hard and inflicting fair damage on an opponent was not an anomaly in his career. Say, like when Foreman blew out Ken Norton, people weren’t asking “what’s up with that?” - since Foreman had already established in prior fights the power in his fists.

So it went with Fitz also. It went longer but see Jeff’s face after Reno, though acknowledged, that beating is still underrated IMO, Jeff’s face was an absolute mess and it was already being rearranged early in the fight.

So, from the other end, It was also not unusual for Jeffries to cop a lot of punishment - as he did from a number of opponents. Combining a puncher like Fitz with a sponge for punishment like Jeff? - It’s never going to be pretty.

Yeah, that was Big Cat Cleveland Williams they used in a boxing mag. to test and debunk. It makes one wonder if covert “loading” was ever really a thing - often claimed but it seems rarely or never proven.

I read one claim to a strange practice back during the same era. If a fighter wanted “out” of a fight or intended to lose for whatever reason, they would put chicken wire in their mouth to promote cutting and bleeding - so the ref. would be compelled to stop the fight due cuts/bleeding. My mouths hurting just thinking about it.

IF anyone can corroborate me on this alleged practice, that would be great.

 

It is also on the report of the fight, for which was a link on Boxrec and published there.

In the biography, which had a co-autor, was also poimted that he was unmarked in their first fight two years earlier, when the opponent was fresher. After that who was pretty inactive, so it is very unlikely to improve that much when you are narrowly 40 and boxing for over two decades.
Just as is described that there were rumour about Fitzsimmons making the purpose of using it to revenge the defeat and doing everything to win the title back. Jeffries responded to it; let him do it. So he didn't care, as he won the first time very easily.

 

Then why was Dingaan Thobela accused to have done this vs. Glen Catley in September 2000 (by the Brits at least)?
It is also supposed, that the hand-bandages were suspect, as there was used an electronic wrapping, not only this time (more than once).