How do we still not know how good Canelo is?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Mar 29, 2022.


  1. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Just because Canelo hadn't accomplished everything then that he had now, doesn't mean he should be held to a lesser standard. He was in his prime, and should be compared to the best middleweights and light heavyweights ever. He didn't deliver on that level. I'm not about to move the goalposts for him, based on nothing.

    I can't have it both ways? How am I trying to have it both ways? GGG was a very good fighter. Almost great. But he was never 'legendary', and neither is drawing with him while being nearly ten years younger.

    Canelo didn't rise to the occasion and dethrone the boogeyman in spectacular fashion. He got a draw, then a razor thin split decision, in two extremely controversial fights. They were in no way comparable to the greatest middleweight performances ever. Things like Nunn-Kalambay/Tate, Duran-Barkley, Kalambay-McCallum I, Hagler-Hearns, etc. "That's your problem", brother, you replied to my original post having a problem with it. Really, it sounds like your problem.

    I'm not about to get into the steroid debacle, but if you actually think Canelo is clean, then I have a large variety of bridges on offer.

    Hagler was much better defensively than GGG was. GGG's defence is probably a little underrated on the whole, as he does manage to roll with punches well and can occasionally parry quite soundly, however he is easy to trick and feint if somebody had the guile. Brook, Canelo, Jacobs, Derevyanchanko, etc showed this. GGG's defence generally comes from his work at range and great jab. He has said in the past though that he has no problem taking shots to land them. Hagler on the other hand had far better head-movement, was much better at defending with his hands, had an even better jab and much better feet. Watch how easily he weaves under whole combinations against future super-middleweight champion, Fully Obel. Hagler did not abandon defence against Hearns. What a ridiculous statement. And please, let's not pretend like GGG has ever, once, fought anybody even close go Hearns in terms of offensive presence and variety. Hearns would land at will against GGG. Even if Hagler did abandon defensive responsibilities against Hearns, it has no bearing on his fight with Leonard, where he clearly didn't.

    Regardless, you've missed my point. Canelo inflicted more damage on GGG than Leonard did on Hagler is irrelevant. Canelo is the same size as GGG - arguably bigger - and is a much bigger puncher at middleweight. And GGG was nowhere near as good defensively as Hagler, as already stated. There was nothing comprehensive about either win. They are among the most controversial fights in the modern era. The fact of the matter, is that Leonard-Hagler was fought at a much higher level, and Leonard coming out of a long retirement to retire a still great Marvin Hagler is what makes that so special. Neither Canelo-GGG fight is special on that level.

    Overall though, Leonard-Hagler has no relevance to a debate about how good Canelo is, so I'm laying this particular topic to rest.
     
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  2. shadow111

    shadow111 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There you go exaggerating the age difference. "Nearly 10 years"? No, "nearly 8 years" is more like it. An 8 year age difference and Canelo has been a pro for much longer than GGG, has twice the amount of rounds as GGG, is far more experienced. Bernard Hopkins was 10 years older than GGG was when he beat Jean Pascal convincingly in their rematch. Mayweather and Canelo had a 13 year age difference when they fought, and Mayweather was older than GGG was when he fought Canelo.

    You are using age as an excuse, at the same time you are saying GGG was never great or legendary, while we have other posters on this very forum proclaiming how great GGG was as a MW Champion and how he's one of the greatest Middleweights ever. So that's what I mean by pick a lane, you're burning both ends of the candle here by no selling Canelo's performance, downplaying GGG's greatness and using age as an excuse when we've seen other examples of fighters with even greater age disparities succeed while GGG couldn't.
    SRL Duran 1 was controversial also, it doesn't take away from the performances of SRL or Duran.
    Yes they are, of course they are comparable to those classics.
    Of course not, you want to stay in fairytale make believe land. Clen isn't a steroid, and in Canelo's case, it's blatant, fully documented meat contamination.
    Reminder, you stated "He should be compared to the best middleweights and light heavyweights ever". Hagler is considered one of the greatest Middleweights ever, and a well passed his prime, inactive for many years, SRL beat him, so it's very relevant to compare the two performances and talk about which performance was better. People constantly use the excuse that GGG was so old and passed his prime when he fought Canelo, because of how GGG aged so much in 1 year. But was he more passed his prime than SRL was when he beat Hagler? SRL was "aged" 3 years which was more like 5 years since he only had 1 fight in '84 in that span, he had a serious injury and he still came back and beat Hagler.
     
  3. Bustajay

    Bustajay Feel the Steel/Balls Deep Full Member

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    I agree as Big Red has literally transform before our eyes unless you are blind and can’t see.

    Im not even a “fan” of Canelo but the dude has improved his game to a whole different level!!!
     
  4. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I hate to break it to you, but eight years is almost ten years. Canelo turned pro the year before GGG, and this is "much earlier"? Yet you say I'm exaggerating? GGG has been pro almost as long and was boxing when Canelo was learning how to say full sentances. Four hundred amateur fights, 15+ years as a pro, and he's eight years older. Your attempt to level them in terms of wear and tear failed miserably.

    I'm not making excuses for anybody, really, but it's weird how you're acting like age isn't a perfectly valid excuse. You've named two phenoms and have started pretending like that proves anything. For every fresh, rejuvenated forty year old like Bernard Hopkins, there's ten thousand like washed, shot, fragile Roy Jones.

    I picked a lane. GGG at his best was a very good fighter - but falls short of all-time great status. I've never claimed GGG to be on that level and I don't really care where the nob noshing fanboys in here rate him. The fact GGG was past his best and was never on the level which would make either of them 'legendary', just further shows how Canelo's performance against him failed to deliver.

    Duran-Leonard I wasn't controversial in the slightest :lol:

    It isn't comparable to them, it's more comparable to two lesser greats having a close fight. Closer to Mosley vs De La Hoya or Hopkins vs Taylor, than it is to something like Hopkins vs Tito or Hagler vs Hearns. I suppose you could say it's like a much lesser version of Toney-McCallum.

    Okay, I'll get into this steroid debate then. Clenbuterol isn't a steroid in name, but it still has performance enhancing effects and is anabolic. It increases aerobic capacity and helps lose weight, making it perfect for Canelo who both cuts lots of weight and had suspect stamina for years. It also boosts type two muscles fibre growth, making an athlete more explosive. Is it any wonder that Canelo has gotten far stronger and more powerful over the last few years? What's more is that it would take nearly 15lbs of lean beef to pass WADA's hair follicle test threshold; hence why there aren't legions of other steak eating Mexican athletes pissing hot. The last time Mexican athletes were suffering from this on a large scale was nearly five years before Canelo popped. And Canelo in 2017/2018 didn't even live in Mexico, he lived in California. So please explain to me the logistics of Canelo somehow managing to eat 15lbs of lean, Mexican beef, in California, while training for GGG rematch, in the mere 39 hours it lasts in your system before an unannounced test, then doing it again in the three days between the failed tests. He cheated, and you're on smoke if you think he isn't on anything today either. His entire gym is on steroids. And not just the small ones they've failed tests for.

    You're last paragraph is pretty much irrelevant. It doesn't even make proper sense, or follow a coherent structure, so I'm going to ignore it. Beating Hagler is more impressive than Drawing with GGG. Obviously.
     
  5. shadow111

    shadow111 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Canelo has twice as many rounds as a pro, 17 more fights, and has been a pro for longer than GGG. So he might be 8 years younger, but he has a lot more ring time and experience as a pro than GGG.
    He was tested while he was in Mexico, which was before he started training camp. He dined with Bill Clinton at a Mexican steak house in Guadalajara just prior to the unannounced test.
    It's very relevant. You said "He should be compared to the best middleweights and light heavyweights ever". When I compared him to Hagler and SRL, you said that's irrelevant. Make up your mind. He inflicted far more punishment on GGG than SRL inflicted on Hagler. And he showcased a much higher level of elusiveness and overall skill than that version of SRL (head movement, slipping punches, setting traps, etc) SRL just overwhelemed Hagler with bursts of lightning quick combinations that wowed the judges, Canelo performed at a much higher level vs GGG than SRL or Hagler when they fought.
     
  6. African Cobra

    African Cobra The Right Honourable Lord President of the Council Full Member

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    You missed Floyd taking him to school and the Lara fight. No doubt Canelo is an outstanding fighter.
     
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  7. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Canelo only fought more rounds because he doesn't hit as hard, and you're high if you think his first seventeen fights against nobody's in Mexico had more effect on Canelo's body - or experience level - than GGG's hundreds of amateur fights and years competing under and in one of the best amateur systems in the world. The experience he'll have gotten even at regional level would've amounted to more than what Canelo got in his earliest days as pro. Let alone the experience he'd have gained at national, European and world level. This weird narrative you're obviously trying to push to paint Canelo as just as grizzled and war-torn as GGG is failing. Badly.

    I'm still willing to give you a great price on that bridge, I mentioned.

    The amount of punishment Canelo inflicted on GGG is irrelevant, as I've already stated. And Canelo has never shown more elusiveness than Leonard, nor has he ever performed at a higher level than Leonard or Hagler did that night. Not even close. :lol:

    Look, the reason it's irrelevant to this particular discussion is because the fact is that the only one of four fighters involved between Leonard-Hagler & Canelo-GGG who gave a legitimately legendary performance is Leonard, and performance only attained that status by virtue of Leonard's situation. His career was apparently over due to retina issues, he took more or less five years out, and miraculously got himself back in elite condition - moved up two weights, and fought the best middleweight ever. Hagler wasn't particularly far past his best, and pretty much battered Mugabi pillar to post in his previous fight, barring one or two competitive rounds.

    Leonard showed a higher ring IQ, better defence, footwork and athleticism in that fight than any of the three ever did. He also happened to show a granite chin, and the ability to change things on the fly. He didn't get complacent either while Hagler was fighting a stupid fight in the early rounds. The idea that he only won due to running and shoeshining is ridiculous. However, if a prime Leonard turned in a performance like that, I'd personally consider it a poor performance. But given the circumstances, and the calibre of the opponent, it just reached that legendary status.

    A legendary performance is a dominant win over a true, historically elite opponent. It's perfectly obvious by tangible evidence, that Canelo and GGG are simply not good enough to do that, as in the only time they had the opportunity, they couldn't separate themselves. If Canelo dominates somebody like Beterbiev easily - and offers up something like a more impressive version of Valdez vs Berchelt - I'll hold my hands up and give him his props, but as it is, Canelo and GGG have never dominated an elite fighter. In fact, I'd argue neither have even beaten one.
     
  8. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    I did mention the Lara fight, his name is in bold.

    Of course canelo is an outstanding fighter, but it's sometimes hard to tell exactly how good he is because he occasionally gets dubious wins, or the opponents themselves have dubious conditions going into the fight.
     
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  9. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Who is ready to suffer for Christ (the truth)? Full Member

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    Like this.
    That immediately after the victory over Kovalev (and winning the title), Canelo fought against Bivol, and in case of victory against Beterbiev; then they would know exactly how good he is.

    Why was it necessary to "trip" to the lightweight category, then return to the super-middleweight, and then again a trip to the lightweight?
    Maybe waiting for Beterbiev to get old, maybe.
    And as for Canelo in the cruiserweight category, there is nothing of that, at least there is nothing of him becoming a champion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2022
  10. African Cobra

    African Cobra The Right Honourable Lord President of the Council Full Member

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    All he can do is beat what is in front of him and currently the people who can beat him don’t fight in the same weight class. It’s going to take skills not just brawn to beat him.
     
  11. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    Canelo isn't exactly going out of his way to fight the best opponents in front of him. Look at the absurd Fielding, Kovalev, and Chavez fights, were those guys considered the best and most dangerous threats in their divisions?

    Plant was a decent opponent, but we all know people wanted to see him fight Benavaidez. Yet he pretty much immediately started talking about moving up when he had an undefeated strong prime fighter in his division. Unfinished business. Did the same thing at 160 when Charlo was his mandatory, another strong prime undefeated fighter he ignored and then moved up.
     
  12. African Cobra

    African Cobra The Right Honourable Lord President of the Council Full Member

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    He is fighting arguably the best light heavuweight in the world in his next fight a fight he could easily lose. Don't sleep on Bivol.
     
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  13. shadow111

    shadow111 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm stating facts, Canelo is twice as grizzled and war-torn as GGG. Not only due to fighting twice as many rounds, but also due to not being as big of a puncher early in his career as GGG was. That means more exchanges, more times being chin checked, etc. Amateur matches are different than pro matches, they are much shorter, there's headgear on, etc. It's not the same thing. You don't take the kind of punishment in amateur fights than you do in pro fights. You can fight this "narrative" all you want, the facts don't lie. Canelo is far more experienced as a pro than GGG. 2X as many rounds, 17 more fights, also more difficult fights against better opponents. GGG is very well preserved for a fighter of his age.

    There are many examples of fighters in their mid-30s still performing at or near their best. Take Froch vs Groves for example. Carl Froch wasn't just 8 years older than George Groves, he was nearly 10 years older than George Groves when they fought. Carl Froch was about as old vs Groves as GGG was when he fought Canelo. No one ever used age as an excuse for Froch. Froch proceeded to stop Groves twice despite a larger age disparity than GGG vs Canelo.
    You keep saying it's irrelevant but you know full well it's relevant. You said we need to compare Canelo to other middleweights. Then I bring up Hagler SRL but since it's doesn't fit your narrative, so you say it's irrelevant. Lets be clear, prime Leonard when he was at welterweight, like in Duran 2 for example, he showed incredible elusiveness OK. I'm not saying Canelo's elusiveness was better than that version of Leonard. But if we're talking about Middleweight SRL, when he fought Hagler, he was no longer as elusive as he was in his prime. At that point, Canelo's elusiveness in GGG 1 was more than Leonard. You know this is true, just watch the footage. Hagler was very gunshy vs SRL, he didn't throw enough punches, because of SRL's footwork, he started closing the distance in the middle to late rounds, but it wasn't enough. SRL still had fast feet in 1987, faster than Canelo's feet in GGG 1, but there was little upper body movement and slipping of punches by SRL, compared to the amount of upper body movement and slipping of punches by Canelo in GGG 1. That's just a fact, so don't even try to deny it.
    Your problem is that you're evaluating legendary status based on Leonard's situation rather than the performance itself. We need to compare the performance. Canelo inflicted more damage on GGG than SRL on Hagler. Just admit that. Was SRL more flashy and rat a tat tat vs Hagler? Absolutely. Could it be seen as more legendary due to expectations and the fact that he was out of the ring for so long? Sure, but at the same time that long layoff and knowing about SRL's injury also caused Hagler to become lackadaisical. He didn't take SRL seriously, he thought it would be a walk in the park. GGG didn't underestimate Canelo to that extent. Canelo GGG was fought at a much higher level than SRL Hagler, and it's not even really close. Canelo GGG was far more grueling, harder blows were landed than in SRL Hagler which was more of a sparring session in comparison. Canelo was under far more pressure from GGG in the first fight than SRL was under against Hagler. And again, unlike SRL vs Hagler, Canelo used higher level defensive skills to avoid GGG's punches like fighting off the ropes, upper body movement, etc.
    That is my point, if a prime Leonard turned in a performance like that, you'd consider it poor. It was only seen as a legendary performance because he wasn't expected to win, due the long layoff, injury etc. Anotherwords, you're grading SRL on a curve, you're giving him extra points because of what he had to overcome. I'm saying, we need to look at the performance itself and compare the performances. The version of GGG who Canelo fought was tougher and better prepared than the version of Hagler who fought SRL.

    Ask yourself this to illustrate my point - what would have happened if 1987 Leonard fought 2017 Canelo or 2017 GGG for that matter? You know damn well SRL would have been hurt and possibly stopped by either Canelo or GGG. Canelo or GGG wouldn't have made the mistake of taking SRL lightly like Hagler did. SRL was able to beat Hagler with a performance that wasn't anywhere near what he was capable of in his prime. That shows that the level at which both fighters (SRL and Hagler) performed were far below their normal standards. I agree it was a legendary performance for the reasons you cite, but just taking the performance on its own merits, it's not up to the level or intensity that Canelo or even GGG for that matter fought at. And that's not a knock on SRL, that's just the reality of the situation.

    And by the way, to your first point, I wouldn't argue against SRL's ring IQ or footwork that night being better than Canelo or GGG. SRL's footwork was amazing against Hagler, he had faster feet that night than Canelo did in GGG 1, no argument there. Better defense or athleticism? That is more comparable. Prime SRL, sure, but 1987 SRL, no, Canelo's defense and athleticism as better in GGG 1 than SRL in 1987 vs Hagler. Fascinating discussion though, I do enjoy hearing your take on this.
    I don't agree with your logic here. GGG was a truly dominant MW great, you don't need to dominate a historically elite opponent in order to have a legendary performance. Duran's performance vs SRL in their first fight was legendary but it was far from dominant. Canelo doesn't have to dominate Beterbiev easily in order to have a legendary performance. Legendary performances speak for themselves, you can eek out a close decision vs a top highly ranked opponent, and it can be legendary. Sometimes the more tough and close a fight is, the more legendary the performance.

    I agree that Canelo or GGG hasn't dominated an elite fighter, but that's not a requirement of putting in a legendary performance. Examples, Joe Frazier gave a legendary performance against Ali in their first fight at MSG. It was far from dominant. Ali gave a legendary performance against Foreman, it was far from dominant, in fact he was covering up on the ropes for most of the match before scoring the KO. So you do not need to dominant an elite in order for your performance to be legendary.
     
  14. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    The Kovalev fight was considered a very good match all the way up until the day before the weigh in when the rehydration clause was disclosed. Kovalev was still ranked top three in the world for that fight.

    And c'mon, you can't actually think Charlo was a better prospective opponent than Plant, Saunders or Smith. Or that Benavidez is better than Bivol. Canelo telling other fighters to go and earn the fight with him isn't unreasonable.
     
  15. C.J.

    C.J. Boxings Living Legend revered & respected by all Full Member

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    We don't know how good he is without the obvious "help" he has received. You name & he's received it.
    Blatant steroid abuse hence the mini Incredible hulk he transformed in to.Still couldn't Legitimately beat GGG
    Very biased Vegas judges plus a State Commission that " Looked the other way" at times
    He's talented for sure but is he really That Good !! I don't think so