Who thinks Max Baer beats Liston

Yes it is.

 

No it isn't. Liston hits harder than Louis, has a better jab, and is just as good of a finisher. The only thing Louis has over him is hand speed in terms of offense.

 

@InMemoryofJakeLamotta please stand up.

 

I need to see proof of this.

 

I don't think any of these is a given.

 

Posts do not exist in a vacuum. Ali/Liston was a reply to Rocky Jim. I know you see quote boxes...so it's weird to feign ignorance and pretend my post was meant to be a singular response to the original post's question. Again, you behave like a troll or someone with an extreme learning/reading disorder.

If you really want to understand what me and Jim were getting at...I would suggest actually reading our conversation and not randomly selecting one post and pretending you can't read the quote box inside it.

You say Ali is smaller than Liston...and not even top 10...let's look at the actual facts:

At a 6'3" listing, Ali is 2 inches taller than Liston and one of the taller men he faced. I believe only tomato cans...Wepner and Zech were taller. Only Valdez and Clark were equal.

Ali's 78"-80" wingspan puts him with Big Cat and Valdez as the longest reaches that Liston ever faced.

So right there, Ali is in top 3-5 of the tallest and reachiest opponents that Liston faced. There are some scrubs without stats and maybe I overlooked someone...but Ali is undeniably up there.

Now let's talk about weight. Ali was 210 for Liston 1. By my count, only 9 men have weighed more against Liston.

So...in addition to being one of the taller and broader men that Liston faced, Ali is a top 10 heaviest opponent.

Even Ali's 206 listing in the rematch places him in the higher end.

So Ali is in fact one of the tallest, heaviest, and reachiest...overall bigger men that Liston faced......you have to admit my description of Ali as one of the "bigger" opponents was correct. It would go a long way in earning respect from other posters.

 

Not me

 

Liston doesn't need as many punches landing flush to KO guys. He has more one punch power. Louis often needed combinations to take guys out.

His jab is widely regarded as possibly the most powerful in the divisions history. You can simply look at the footage and see how guys stop dead in their tracks when he lands his jab. Liston hit the huge 6'5 Wepner and rearranged his face until it required dozens of stickers with just his jab. Show me the fight where Louis is battering a guy with his jab alone like it's a power punch.

Liston is a superb finisher once he had his man hurt. I can't think of a single fight where he had a guy on wobbly legs and failed to finish him. Therefore, he's just as good of a finisher as Louis who went the distance way more often than Liston.

 

Well, no, but surely you agree Liston can at least match Louis in raw power and finishing ability? Even if he isn't as fast as Louis, he hits hard as hell, has very good killer instinct, and puts his punches together very well. The point was Liston being able to stop Baer early like Louis did cannot be ruled out. They even have similar styles, it's just that Louis throws crisper, more fluid punches.

 

Show me a fight where Liston hit a 6'6 250 pound heavyweight so hard that he went spinning to the canvas. Louis power was proven against top 10 heavies that would still be heavies in the modern day division. Say what you want about their skill, but Buddy Baer and Primo Carnera were top 10 opponents who were the size of a modern day super heavy.

I don't doubt Liston's power, but he was usually the bigger man fighting opponents that would be modern day cruiserweights (and I'm being generous, many modern cruiserweight fighters are bigger on fight night than the heavyweights that Liston fought). Cleveland Williams, at 6'3 210-215 pounds would be a modern day cruiserweight. Buddy Baer would be a modern day heavyweight at 6'6 250 pounds.

Any fighter that Liston demolished, Louis would also demolish. What do you think happens to Wepner vs Louis?

 

Um what?

Also Baer was in the 230s when he fought Louis, certainly not 250.

 

I was referring to weight when I said Ali was not even in the top ten of guys Liston fought and I maintain that.

Regarding height, I don't have the time to go through all Liston's opponents' boxrec page to check it out. Believe it or not some people actually have a life outside of accusing other posters of being pedophiles and making jokes about it 24/7.

I noticed you edited "it would go a long way in earning my respect" to "respect from other posters.

Let's get one thing straight, I don't give a rat's ass about your respect. That you don't have respect for me tells me I'm doing something right.

 

In the 2nd fight he was 250, according to Boxrec