How do we still not know how good Canelo is?

Not reading all that BS lol But One point You say Canelo didn't have a big punch early on right??? Maybe that was because he hadn't started his transformation into the Mini Hulk !! huh ?????? eg Steroids ???

 

Doing good work in here @George Crowcroft, keeping me entertained by arguing with the most delusional poster on the forum. Making my work a bit more bearable.

 

Twice as war-torn? I'm sorry, I'm not even bothering with that whole first paragraph.

You can name as many parallels as you can think of, but you know that for every elite fighter who hasn't declined by their mid 30s, there's hundreds who have. GGG was not the same at 36 as he was at 31. Obviously. And let's not pretend like beating George Groves was all that difficult.

No, it's not a fact. Not at all. Leonard had extremely slick upper body movement against Hagler, he just didn't rely on it because his footwork was so many times better than Canelo's. Why stand still and move your head when you can you move your feet? Even though Leonard's strategy wasnt centred around head-movement like Canelo's was, it was still more impressive than Canelo's. You tell me to go and watch it? Take your own advice. Canelo has never been more elusive than Leonard.

I have admitted it. Now you admit it means literally nothing. Leonard wasn't "more flashy", he didn't shoe shine his way to a win. He won by moving, hitting, and moving. He landed cleaner, in short, eye-catching flurries. Canelo tried it, and he didn't get the win. He did the second time, but he did it against a worse fighter, an older fighter, without a size disadvantage and without having one fight in five years. Leonard overcame insurmountable odds against the best middleweight of all-time, and that's why his performance is legendary. I don't really give a **** about "grading on a curve". Leonard turned in a performance which a man who had gone through what he had, should not have been able to do - against one of the best fighters of all time, in the defining fight of the whole era. Canelo didn't.

Canelo vs GGG was not fought at a higher level in anyway. The fact that it was more grueling speaks to this. They landed heavier on eachother because they were both more hittable, and far less skilled. Hagler never underestimated anyone. He got over confident in terms of his gameplan, but he always came in in superb condition and this was no different. In fact, the chip on his shoulder made him train even harder. Also, I don't know how Hagler-Leonard could be more of a sparring session in comparison when they threw a combined 300+ punches more than GGG and Canelo did? Canelo was under more pressure? Leonard didn't fight off the ropes? Have you actually watched Hagler-Leonard?

I'd take both Leonard, and Hagler over both Canelo and GGG. I'd give Golovkin a better chance of the two, as his power and jab would let him wear Leonard down if he got in position for long enough. I doubt it though, if a fighters like Canelo or Jacobs was too much for him to stop. BTW, Canelo stopping Leonard is a joke. He couldn't even down an old Cotto. Hagler had just beaten the **** out of Mugabi, who - lets face it - would be GGG's best win, and was only two fights removed from destroying an all-time great. He was hardly far past his best. Their fight was only fought at a higher intensity, because they weren't as skilled. As it was, they didn't even have as a high a volume, and don't tell me Hagler wasn't throwing bombs at Leonard.

You're right, Legendary performances do speak for themselves, and the bottom line is, two controversial decisions against a guy whose best win is Daniel Jacobs does not scream "legendary". Something like Robinson vs LaMotta is a legendary performance, or something like Hopkins-Tito, Hagler-Hearns, Hearns-Duran, etc, etc. Canelo-GGG I & II is more comparable to Taylor-Hopkins or Mosley-De La Hoya. Also, Frazier beat Ali something like 10-5 with what should be two knockdowns. How is that not dominant? The fight was extremely entertaining, sure. But it wasn't particularly 'competititve' in terms of who was going in the lead. Same with the Rumble in the Jungle. Ali lost at most two rounds, and stopped Foreman in eight, after tying him in knots both in the centre of the ring, and on the inside, with his back to the ropes. He completely out-classed Foreman. Duran moved up two weights won like 10-5/11-4 against arguably the best welterweight ever. That's pretty damn dominant in those situations. Not to mention literally being no less than the third best fighter ever, at his absolute peak.

However, I feel the krux of this debate may be that we have different standards of performances. There are very few controversial fights - or draws - I'd name legendary performances. For instance, I wouldn't name McCallum-Toney as such.

However, if you do truly believe Canelo's performance against GGG was in the same calibre as Robinson's against LaMotta, Monzon's against Griffith, Kalambay's against McCallum, or Hopkins' against Tito - I'm not going to spend more of my time changing your mind. I don't see it, and likely won't ever see it.

Also, the two of us have gotten so far down the Hagler-Leonard comparison rabbit hole, that we've really started to derail the actual thread topic. But it's pretty funny how we've managed to post like 10,000 words about Hagler-Leonard and not once talk about the scoring

 

I'd take the third best guy at two weights above over a guy who wasn't even top three at his own weight any day of the week thanks. He fought like a guy fighting on borrowed time, but he'd still have smashed any other middleweight bar Canelo and GGG that night.

Let's be honest, nobody was calling for the Benavidez fight over the Plant fight. If Benavidez hadn't blown his title on cocaine and food, he'd have gotten the Canelo fight. As it was, he only has himself to blame. Now Canelo has moved on to a new challenge, at a new weight, and one far more serious and dangerous than Benavidez ever has been.

Canelo wasn't ducking Andrade, Benavidez and Charlo to face every champion at super middleweight, and two of the four light heavyweight champions of the last few years. He told them to earn it, they should've listened.

 

Why would anyone pay to fix the Yildrim fight?

 

No, Charlo was rated number four by Ring. Kovalev was rated #3, two weights above. That's a much more acceptable challenge than Charlo was. Also, while it isn't talked about, but it was clear Canelo was never making middleweight again after he beat Kovalev. Kovalev would have battered Charlo that night. Charlo was losing to Korobov around that time. Even dehydrated, he was easily good enough to stop Charlo.

The only people who want to see Canelo vs Benavidez, are the people who'd have said he was ducking Caleb Plant if he'd have fought Benavidez instead. They want any fight that isn't happening so they can constantly make Canelo out to look bad.

Yeah, imagine facing all those bums like the three super middleweight champions and two of the light-heavyweight champions, instead of these three guys who between them have beaten a grand total of two top five opponents in their entire, combined careers.

Just be honest, your claim that Canelo isn't facing the best possible is ridiculous. He just cleaned up a division's champions and is now attempting to do it again. The guy can be accused of a lot of things, but not facing the best is not one of them.

 

If you can’t see how Good Canelo is
It’s Because your are blinded by the hate.

 

give yall a reason to cry.

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Nothing suggest Andrade is as good or better than Saunders. Saunders just like Andrade was undefeated, a slick southpaw, and a world champion. Until Canelo took Saunders 0. Unlike Andrade though, at least Saunders has 1 good win in Lemieux, different weight class, but still levels above Andrades achievements.

Charlo ? Okay thats a good point but Bivol is better

 

You'd have to say he is elite at a minimum. His resume is excellent and including Bivol, he will have 6 fighters on his resume people kept saying he would never fight.
What fighters has he ducked? I laugh out loud at anyone that thinks he ducked Charlo or even more hilarious... Andrade.

Yes he has called the shots in negotiations, but so did Floyd, Oscar, SRL and every other top fighter that was the draw. There certainly is a strong argument he lost the first fight to GGG, but even then, he showed very well. The Lara fight, well, blame Lara for that. He was on his bike the whole fight and hardly threw anything. 360 or so punches total with most being jabs? Dude.
I don't think the majority will ever consider him the GOAT, but certainly elite and first ballot hall of famer.

 

Very long post with some great points but 1 fundamentals comparing Canelo to SRL and Lil G to Hagler is flawed as older boys were much better.

 

I don't like Canelo, but he is skilled. How skilled.. it's hard to tell due to the lack of promising fighters willing to face each other.

 

Question George, does Hagler beat GGG In your opinion?