Did Nino Valadez ever deserve a shot at Rocky?

Fair enough list. If I rated opponents, it would be those four plus Louis.

I would put Don Cockell 8th or 9th among Marciano's opponents. I don't think his fight would be among Marciano's top ten victories.

"LaStarza"

You overdo the criticism. He was 53-3 and had beaten every opponent except Marciano and that fight had been close and controversial. He was definitely protected but I am not certain this automatically proves a fighter inferior. He was also the #1 contender and was coming off a win over Layne who held wins over Walcott and Charles.

"Matthews"

Matthews in fact never got a title shot. Their fight was an elimination for a shot at Walcott.

And was he all hype? This was what Nat Fleischer had to say about Matthews in the February, 1952 issue of The Ring, page 38:

"While in the past we have honored Ray with the all-around championship so far as ability is concerning, this time The Ring selects Harry Matthews as the world's best all-around fighter of the year. His cleverness, hitting power, ring generalship, and triumphs over all opponents regardless of weight, has gained for him the post occupied by Sugar Ray last year."

It is interesting to me how totally dismissed a fighter is who was undefeated since early in WW2 and was on a more than 50 bout winning streak, while being rated at one time or another in the middle, light-heavy, and heavy classes, and who could impress observers such as Fleischer as being the best fighter in the world.

As for Valdes, I think he would rate about 6th or perhaps 7th of Marciano's opponents. That would be better than Cockell, but I also think the improvement is somewhat marginal.



"

 

Matthews and Lastarza were real good boxers. They were small which is why they probably get dismissed. Historically speaking I think both give a lot of excellent fighters an L for the night. Matthews is real fun to watch with the limited film we have of him. Layne thought he would beat Marciano easy. Lot of power for his size and speed. Lastarza s foot work and jab was top notch just lacked that power.

 

Here’s the 1954 Cockell - LaStarza highlights, several months before Don’s crack at Marciano:

https://youtu.be/5UtQARUtPWE

 

I never said Mathews got a title shot.I was responding to the OP question ,who were Marciano's top5 opponents ? Now tell me what were Mathews best scalps and ,while you are at it why he was campaigned away from the big lights?
You can build up any fighter eg Lamar Clark.
When was Mathews ever ranked at heavyweight?
If you are a protected fighter the question waiting to be asked is WHY?

 

I wasn’t asked the question but I’m a Matthews fan so I’ll answer as best I can. He beat the following decent fighters
Rex Layne
Lloyd Marshall
Ezzard Charles (we know they were both old)
Danny Nardico (nice fight to watch)
Freddie Beshore
Dave Whitlock
Bob Murphy
The answer to why he wasn’t ranked at HW is simple. He was ranked at LHW. For whatever their reasoning at the time they didn’t like ranking fighters in two divisions (eg Archie Moore and Harold Johnson).

you don’t have to tell me Lloyd and Charles were old. I know they were. But its two HOF fighters none the less. I wouldn’t say he was protected at all. Just poorly managed imo. They shouldn’t have matched him against Marciano they should have let him get his LHW shot. Then he could have challenged later if he won. The man was on a roll and he looks better then good on film. Looks like a hell of a fighter to me. One that maybe should have stayed at LHW but good enough to jump up occasionally

 

Yes, he very much did do.

I hate the lazy arguments against it.

Also hate that people say he's the only HW sized fighter Rocky could have fought, and didn't, because he wouldn't be any greater or better having beaten Valdes. The fight is a foregone conclusion.

 

"When was Matthews ever rated at heavyweight."

These are the ratings from the August, 1952 issue of The Ring, for up to June 18, 1952:

Champion-----Jersey Joe Walott
1-----Rocky Marciano
2-----Ezzard Charles
3-----Roland LaStarza
4-----Coley Wallace
5-----Clarence Henry
6-----Harry Matthews
7-----Johnny Williams
8-----Bob Dunlop
9-----Cesar Brion
10---Jimmy Bivins

He was also rated by The Ring at heavyweight in 1953. He was rated #8 when he fought Cockell. If you doubt it, I can pull up my dusty old The Ring's and give a couple of 1953 ratings. Years ago I put my remaining copies in plastic bags, so they have survived.

Matthews was rated #9 in The Ring's 1942 yearly ratings at middleweight off a victory over former champion Al Hostak. He was rated at light-heavy from 1950 to 1952, peaking as the #1 contender in 1951, with Archie Moore at #2 and Harold Johnson at #3.

So he was rated in three divisions over the period from 1942 to 1953.

Overall Matthews has a remarkable record on paper for a guy who is nothing but a hype job. He lost at 17 to a much more experienced fighter. He would then be beaten by four other men--Eddie Booker, Jack Chase, Rocky Marciano, and Don Cockell. All were top five rated fighters at one time or another. He took the count only against Marciano. Booker stopped him on cuts when Matthews was 20. He retired due to a bad back in the third Cockell fight. And he fought for almost 20 years.

He probably wasn't as good as this record implies, but he wasn't a nothing either.

"Why was he campaigned away from the big lights?"

Boxing was controlled by a monopoly, the International Boxing Club, fronted by Jim Norris but supposedly run behind the scenes by Frankie Carbo. Jack Hurley was fighting the IBC and keeping his fighters independent. The issue of Harry Matthews being frozen out went all the way to an inquiry by the United States Senate. Whatever the spin, this issue is a lot more complex than just Hurley "protecting" Matthews.

"Why wasn't Matthews campaigned away from the big lights?"

He fought at Madison Square Garden and Yankee Stadium before Archie Moore appeared in either.

 

You left off former middle champion Al Hostak.

I think Matthews would have been 50/50 in a match with Maxim if the judging were fair. Would it have been? I don't blame Hurley for doubting it and if nothing else, Maxim could always take a fight to the judges.

I also think Matthews passed the sight test in his fight with Murphy. He looks good.

 

I believe he was offered more money for Marciano and took it. Hurley was selfish imo. Hurley probably really thought Matthews could beat him if he stuck w the plan (he did win round 1 lol).
Hurley cost Matthews every fighters dream to be a champion or at least a chance to compete for it.
I’ve heard the Murphy fight was good (fight of the year I believe) but wasn’t able to find it. Only fights ive seen of Matthews were Nardico n Marciano and a short clip of him fighting a lesser known fighter (forget his name).

 

I hope I don't have to tell you,Marshall,Nardico,Murphy,Whitlock ,were Lhvy's?
That Layne was seriously diminished and never the same after Marciano crushed him.Three months earlier he had lost to 12-2-1Wilie James.
Charles had lost 6 of his last 10 fights and a month later would be slung out for refusing to fight and persistent holding against Dick Richards in a dreadful exhibition of ineptitude in the UK.
Whitlock? Lhvy who had lost his last 6 fights! Enough said!
Nardico had lost to 167lbs Villemain ,3 months before losing to Mathews
Beshore fought Mathews twice in 1953 the 1st fight was a draw, Mathews won the 2nd, Beshore hadn't been ranked ,or relevant to the division since 1948! Nevertheless he put up a good fight until his bugbear ,cuts forced the fight to be stopped.
Bottom line extremely thin resume even at lhvy!

 

Moore was kept away from MSG because he was too good. Mathews was kept away because he wasnt good enough! Hurley knew what he had there!

 

Anybody say he was "nothing"? I'm aware of Hurley going to Kefauver, I have the John Ochs books on Hurley.Weill didn't want Marciano to fight Mathews, but Norris ,with Carbo's hand up his ass insisted he did so.

 

He also fought and beat beshore jn 51..Whitlock and Nardico fights were at HW.
Layne was nowhere near his best but he did beat Charles in his very next fight and for the rest of his career would become a stepping stone for up and comers. Putting up decent showings if not Ls jn most of them. Layne thought Matthews would beat Marciano. That’s how highly regarded Matthews was. Is it a perfect record? No. But who’s is?

 

Whitlock weighed 182lbs and 176lbs for the Mathews fights and had lost his last 6 fights, 4 of them by ko .Layne got a robbery decision over Charles.
Mathews v Nardico.

1951-12-05 176 Harry Matthews 175 Heavyweight?
The 1st Beshore fight was still 3 years after Beshore had left his brief stay in the rankings.Fearless Freddie had lost 7 of his last 10 fights!
Layne thought he would beat Marciano ,how did that turn out?
Marshall was having his last fight,here is what Springs Toledo has to say in his excellent Murderers Row.
"He was knocked out for the 3rd time in as many fights that year.Harry Kid Mathews who didnt stand a chance against Murderers Row in the 1940's,threw a short left hook at the same timeLloyd did only Mathews was shorter,faster and the only one that landed."Marshall was a month off of 37 years old.

 

He also beat Bernie Reynolds and Phil Muscato and knocked out Ted Lowry…Bernie was green and Phil was his last fight but the bottom line is he did what he was supposed to do. He won. I’m not sure why Marciano opponents are held to this gold standard. Most contenders are brought up this way. Heck most people today avoid anyone with an ounce of talent before they receive a title shot.
Had Matthews been not that good or even mediocre he doesn’t sustain the record he did against the men he did. I’m not saying he was some world beater but he was a good fighter