Longest a title challenger has been stoned walled (post Color Line)?

I'm gonna throw in Tim Witherspoon's name. After losing to Bonecrusher Smith, Witherspoon would've been a viable title challenger from 87 to 97 when he lost to Donald. During that time, he lost an embarrassing sd to Bigfoot Martin and a competitive decision to Mercer but otherwise remained unbeaten. No shot materialized even after beating Al Cole and Jorge Luis Gonzalez back to back in 96.

 

Pretty much agree with the Patterson analysis, but not so much with the Liston-Machen analysis. Machen fought Liston with one hand in 1960. His right hand was hurt in training and he was unable to use it effectively against Sonny and did pretty well anyway. Eddie would have had a better chance with two hands. The main thing militating against a better performance by him is that his career took a rapid downhill progression soon after Liston won the title.

 

Excellent points Kid.

Given Eddie’s own decline, I should’ve said putting aside any deteriorations on Machen’s part also, not just Liston - so basically, a hypothetical rematch with both men fullly able and fit.

Yes, I understand Machen did claim an injured right hand. Not to dismiss it out of hand, but do we know how and when he made that claim and how well it was substantiated?

Eddie also claimed that Liston dipped his gloves during the fight causing Machen’s vision to be impaired - and it seems that claim was made well after the alleged fact. the claim being made post Miami 1964 after Ali’s own issues in round 5 v Sonny.

But then Liston claimed to have carried a bad shoulder into Miami which worsened during the fight - and I tend to believe that is true and feel that it did impact Liston’s performance - so it’s only fair to give Machen equal consideration.

I might watch the fight again. One thing I recall, Machen did use the right seemingly without issue when in close, in clinches etc. but not so much at long range.

Injured or not, more use of the right hand at range would’ve made Machen more vulnerable to Liston’s multi purposed left hand - so, in some ways, due to injury or not. , Machen not employing the right hand so much at range effectively made for a less risky and safer fight for him - but of course if Eddie could’ve put the right over effectively and used it more often it may well have unsettled Liston and broke his rhythm and momentum.

Since I first watched their fight, with repeat viewings thereafter, I’ve come to really appreciate what an excellent 12 rounder it really was on both fighter’s parts. Cardio wise, both men terrifically fit and another 3 rounds to make it a 15 rounder wouldn’t have been a problem for either man IMO.

 

Bullsh. He couldn't even beat simple Peter. He had the gift of a lifetime against the mighty Fres Oquendo. Oh, sorry, not of a lifetime, we must remember Tiberi. A roided up fatbody.

 

The injury was documented in the Seattle newspapers even prior to the fight. I know when I watched the fight years afterward, I was convinced he was unable to use the hand as an effective offensive weapon. All his hard punching was done with his left.

At this late stage of the game, all we can do is fill in the big gaps about what we don't know with conjecture. But isn't that always the case in this forum? One thing we do know is that Machen was not intimidated by Liston like the rest of his opponents at this time. I think a fight between a healthy Machen and Liston would have been a far more interesting fight. Machen liked to sit on the ropes and wait for openings to counter to the head and body with both hands. I don't think he would have allowed himself to be hit by Liston's left any more if he had two good hands. He would have picked his spots to let the right go. Having survived with Liston when he wasn't at his best, Eddie would have had more confidence the second time around. Obviously, though, Liston would still have to be favored in a rematch.

Like you, I am fascinated by this fight. Part of it is that it took place in the city where I have lived all my life.

 

He didn’t become mandatory for winning the eliminator. He was offered an eliminator with Ortiz, went to purse bids IIRC and he ran away.

He also turned down Joshua.

Guy’s best move was to wait til someone signed a fight and THEN call them out.

Not to mention him being a PED cheat.

 

True, we’d have a lot less to talk about if not for the conjecture.

Machen wasn’t just not intimidated, he was actually disdainful of Liston, in the press and over the course of the fight, wasn’t he? Still, I think he fought a realistically wary fight anyway.

There was some palpable “feeling” in that fight and you didn’t often see Liston lose his cool, even if ever so slightly.

You could also see Liston didn’t like Machen performing the old veteran’s “spin” on him - Eddie in manipulative control, ending up behind Liston and hugging him on several occasions - LOL.

 

If the AJ fight was offered and he didn’t sign the contract, he rejected it.

You want to talk about PEDs, give me the whitewashed version of Whyte’s failed drug test.

If he beat Ortiz, he would have gotten the shot. When Dilly Dilly walked away from that one and Ortiz took another fight, Whyte then called him out lol.

Whyte’s not getting a mandatory was because he turned down an eliminator with Ortiz:

https://www.*****.net/2019/04/05/dillian-whyte-world-title-explained/

Whyte in 2020 called out Ortiz and Ortiz accepted, said he’d come to the UK. Dillian kept Luis’ name out of his mouth after that, did not follow through with his challenge.

Dilly Dilly won the interim title or whatever it’s called by beating Povetkin after being KO’d by him. That’s why he’s getting a shot down — because he split with a washed-up Povetkin. SMH.

 

No sarcasm radar?

 

I disagree he did “pretty well”. Just rewatched the bout, and didn’t give him a single round aside from point deductions from Liston .

It’s hard to say he would’ve beaten Liston seeing as he couldn’t even beat Williams.

 

Wait there so you're saying what problem could I have with someone being WBC #1 after winning a few 8 rounders then Dave Allen and Ian Lewison. Come off it will you.

The fact is I have no problem with Whyte getting a shot now but if he was on the scrap heap like Jarrell Miller had been he couldn't complain too much.

Golovkin won then defended the WBC interim title 4x while Canelo was just messing about before he finally got the title.

As I said there's a big difference between stone walling based on race and someone being a diva wanting more millions. Hagler wasn't turning down title fights.

There's literally loads of fighters more hard done to than Whyte over the years who's been given a big push if anything. Also this "WBC eliminator" with Chisora you're talking about you forget to mention that Chisora deserved to win that fight.

 

How can you say he's been shafted when he's made millions. Other fighters have had hard fights and not got the millions or the title shot.

Like I said he got offered a title shot but he wanted the millions. He's spoiled a lot of the hype for this fight because he's not happy with the £5 or £6 million he's getting for it.