Does Lennox Lewis Get Unfair Criticism For KOing Tyson?

A tomato can.

 

That’s down to training habits, not something that correlates with his style.

Yes Floyd Patterson fought the same style. They are both Cus D’Amato disciples and learned the same system from the ground up.

Difference, if any, is that Floyd became a bit more versatile and was willing to be coached and learn when he left D’Amato. Tyson, on the other hand, didn’t want a trainer who would make him work or teach him anything. He became overly reliant on his power.

There was absolutely nothing about his style that led to Tyson’s decline — he continued to show in spurts (as you mentioned in the first round of the Lewis fight) well into his career that he could still be effective with it, but he didn’t condition himself nor allow himself to be drilled and coached to actually stick to it during fights.

That’s true of basically any style. A guy who relies on sticking and moving could still be effective later but if he does no road work and isn’t in condition, he can’t carry out that style so he isn’t mobile and he gets beat up. The exceptions are pure reflex fighters (say Roy Jones Jr, or Muhammad Ali defensively) who hit a point where their youth is gone and their reflexes aren’t as sharp and they pay a price.

Tyson went up in flames at a very young age because he wasn’t disciplined and he wasn’t dedicated. Not because of his style.

 

Styles like Frazier’s and Tyson’s require far more energy to optimally maintain - and, as opposed to other styles, they also lose far more in effectiveness even when they perform only a bit below optimal.

Also, for the sake of argument, if we want to say Tyson’s style was exactly the same as Patterson, there is the size difference (25 + lbs) and Mike’s far heavier musculature.

Even as a fight progressed past the usual early round blowout you could see Mike lose that absolute, optimal edge in movement and offence.

Mike was so much more effective in the first 5-6 rounds as opposed to rounds beyond that threshold even though he could still be very good in the later rounds. Some said the same of Dempsey back in the day.

Mike also had a lot of KOs via the short route so he wasn’t necessarily put upon to show the longevity and maintained viability of his style in many single fights let alone musing if he could’ve maintained himself over a longer career and longer fights - if he remained perfectly dedicated and conditioned.

Take prime Ali’s extravagant mobility and upper body gymnastics. That took some octane energy.

Even without the exile, just in regards to that aspect of Alis game - I think we would’ve possibly seen a downturn before the 3 1/2 period was out. Very extravagant and far more difficult to maintain than other features of his armoury.

 

Even if Tyson had irreproachable training habits, his style was still never going to age well.

I would go as far as to say that Lewis was always going to outlast him.

 

Emmanuel Steward said in about 85-86" he didn't expect Tyson to have
a very long prime. He was right of course. When a fighter is so depended
on physicality as Tyson was, (The frenetic movement, depended on reflexes
and speed) Once they age, and start to slow they become more vulnerable.
The pace he fought at in his late teens/early 20's is completely different than
the pace he fought at in his mid/late 20's ,he became more of a plodding
puncher in his later yrs, than the slick boxer puncher he was when he was young.
As early as 1989 Tyson was slowing and became more depended on punching
power. He was much more stationary and easier to hit. Fighters that depended
on superior physicality than skills usually start to show cracks in their late 20's
early 30's.
Some compensate with having a very high boxing IQ. Like Ray Robinson.
Some with physical toughness, Ali,
Some we saw flaws their extreme physicality disguised for years, like Jones
Jr's inability to take a good punch.

 

But was the frustration /psychological issues because of
him slowing down, or were they their already, but because
of his dominance we didn't see them? (Actually we did, but
it was in bits and pieces as opposed to full out rage,Tyson
for all his dominance was very insecure about himself)
If he fought a great fighter in his prime years , someone
who made him have a serious gut check, I believe
his issues would've been exposed earlier.

 

That was a pure $ grab for Tyson. Not Lewis's fault that Mike Tyson hadn't put boxing first since 1990. Lennox was a good champion. He trained hard, lived decent, fought the best fighters of his time. Retired smartly.

 

Lewis was a better fighter. And he continued to learn and train hard and adapt.

What specifically about Tyson’s style was less sustainable than anyone else’s? Floyd Patterson was splendid as an older fighter who came from the same mold. No reason Tyson couldn’t have been better.

I don’t think he stopped moving his head and using his jab because of some physical inability to do so — he just didn’t train and drill to do it. He started throwing one punch instead of combinations. That’s not down to his style being flawed, it’s down to a combination of hubris and laziness on Tyson’s part.

 

The styles that age most gracefully, are the ones that are most economical in terms of effort.

The styles at age least gracefully, are the ones that are least economical in terms of effort.

In other words styles that depend upon pressure reflexes and athleticism.

That is not to say that such styles are flawed, it is just to say that they don't age well.

If you are consistently at a height and reach disadvantage, then you have no choice but to adopt a style that doesn't age particularly well.

As you reasonably argue, Floyd Patterson beat the odds for a long time, but he is sort of the exception that proves the rule.

I would mention that he had severe back problems in his later career.

 

That is the story of the fight. Not LL's fault at all, but MT had no desire to box or train and weighed 235 pounds for the fight. MT had been so devastating in his early years that people still paid to see him fight hoping he could do it one more time. But without the desire, MT was just a under trained, overweight, has been. IMO, MT still had the physical ability at that point, if he had the desire to train and box he still might have beaten anybody.

 

No, Kirk Johnson wasn't his next plan after Tyson. Vitali was his mandatory going into 2003. The Johnson fight was a tune-up, and a fight to align their schedules, because Vitali was on the undercard against Cedric Boswell. The plan was for Vitali/Lewis to happen late in 2003. The Johnson injury merely bumped the mandatory forward.

Lewis was also keeping an eye on Don King's planned mini-tournament of Holyfield/Byrd for the IBF belt and Ruiz/Jones for the WBA then unification bout, and was considering fighting one of them if someone rose to the top, but when Jones went straight back down to Light-Heavyweight after winning the WBA belt then that avenue was closed.

I dont think Lewis thought anyone was a threat to him after he beat Tyson, and I think his passion had gone. Tyson was the last challenge, the mythical beast to be slain, and once he'd done that he didn't have a reason to try anymore, and that's likely part of the reason why he came in so heavy and out of shape for the June 21st, 2003 fight.

 

He was definitely preparing for the Kirk Johnson fight after the Tyson fight.

Thee is a reason why Vitally K moved to secure a fight with Kirk Johnson, after Lewis beat him.

He wanted to leave no doubt, who the top challenger was.

He was a lot more interested in fighting Jones, than any of the other belt holders.

On this point, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Mike and Floyd had a very similar style, but Mike’s was much more taxing.

They both employed the ‘peak a boo’ style, but Floyd didn’t possess Mike’s upper body and head movement.

Floyd was also taller.

Mike was only 5’10.

The initial plan was to have Mike retire in his early 30’s at 50-0.

That was the goal.

The training required for Mike to employ that style was absolutely brutal.

It was never a style built for longevity with that constant movement and the pressure on his back.

You’re right though, when Rooney had gone, he didn’t train anywhere near as hard, even though he could maintain his weight and his low percentage of body fat etc.

He didn’t have the desire he’d had getting to the top, and he didn’t have the team around him to push him.

He became his own boss.

So you’re right about his desire and work ethic.

However, even if he’d have had both, it’s highly unlikely that he could have produced the same results both in training and in the ring at an advanced age.