Robinson is a given and Leonard looks good behind him, although you can make the argument for longer reigning champions. Maybe Griffith, Armstrong and Napoles to close out the top 5. Gavilan and Mayweather have a voice in this conversation as well, I think. Maybe Britton and Barbados Walcott, but must confess I don't know much about their resumes. Or just how good Benny Leonard was at WW, where he was a champion. Then you have some really good WWs from more recent times like Trinidad, Pac, DLH, Mosley, Hearns, Whitaker etc. Maybe more 10-20 territory for them. Pac could be argued in a number f ways, though. A decade between his demolition of Cotto, at his peak, and win over Thurman. That's not half bad, even though there were some losses in between.
Definitely beat Bradley all three times imo. The decision in in the first one is one of the worst I've ever seen.
I bet Bradley by dec. I went to bed before it ended figuring that I’d lost and woke up to nice windfall.
Another list with Jack Britton very high. I like to see lists from other boxing fans because it allows me to see how other people assess the fighters of the past. It has certainly been fascinating to realize that Jack Britton has more recognition as an all timer than I ever would have believed. One thing McGrain, why do you have Henry Armstrong as low as no.6 ?
First, Armstrong made a habit of fighting lightweights in welterweight title defenses. He contested the 147lb title against Baby Arizmendi in a 1939 defense that was thrilling, bloody but staged against a fighter who weighed 135.5lbs. Davey Day weighed 136lbs. Lew Feldman, 134. There are other examples. One can only imagine the reaction had Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao have taken a welterweight title or strap and then defended it against a series of 135lb men. Armstrong himself was often barely above the lightweight limit but that is not the point. The point is, Armstrong wasn't exposed to the true rigors of the welterweight division in these contests. So yes, Armstrong staged a lot of defences, and he was a busy champion, but a handful of these contests were fought against fighters who, frankly, were not welterweights. He was also given to boxing title-matches with fighters who were not qualified to be in such contests. Howard Scott had lost six in six when he got the call. Phil Furr had lost three of his last four. There were quality defences, but a lot of chaff. Finally, Armstrong's management – not Armstrong, his management – didn't seem keen on taking on some of the tougher challenges available. Charley Burley was repeatedly told that Armstrong was to depart for lightweight and so a title fight was not possible, only to box match after match at the weight. Cocoa Kid was, perhaps, deserving of a shot and no shot materialized. The tiny Joe Gnouly, 3-4 in his last seven, did get a title fight, however. This has to be balanced against what guys like Britton and Napoles did. There's nothing uncomfortable about Armstrong at six, I don't think.
Benny Leonard never won the welter title. He was lightweight champion and he fought welterweight champ Jack Britton for the title but lost due to disqualification.
Very good answer. I’m familiar with much of the criticism of Armstrong’s 147 pound title reign that you expressed in your excellent post. And it’s hard to argue against most of it. After your reply, I just read your article on the “ Sweet Science” website about the 50 Greatest Welterweights. It was very good. Armstrong dominated the great Barney Ross and was still magnificent. McGrain, thanks for the response.—Mark
Very hard to say. Not a big fan of fantasy match-ups. I do think DLH deserved the decision over Tito, though, and Mayweather could certainly box as good as Oscar could. Hearns and Tito would be a great one as long as it lasted, that's the boldest prediction I'll make for it.
Ha! Yet just a few days ago, you were telling us all that Canelo was a top 5 ATG JMW. The list is obviously a mix of ability and resumes. It’s just the same as any other. Floyd Mayweather only had 3 fights at JMW, yet you also rate him as a top ATG JMW. In terms of ability, Hearns was a great WW. There’s also no shame in losing to a prime SRL. So stop whining.
Canelo made over ten defenses in a historically shallow division. Hearns made one or two defenses in a very deep division, historically. *pat on head*
