Sonny Liston vs Oleksandr Usyk

As I often tediously suggest:

If we're talking size comparisons, it's actually harder than one might think.

Elite heavyweights today don't train like 1960s guys. The 60s fighters trimmed down to 210 (or whatever) with sparring and cardio. Whatever muscle mass they had, it was because they were just naturally big people whose bodies happened to be muscular.

Modern fighters artificially put on muscle mass in various ways.

Since these two populations of fighters don't compete with each other, I don't think there's a clear way to determine whether a 210 pound fighter from the 1960s is the same kind of critter as a 210 pound fighter from the 2020s. They may not translate identically.

 

And I mostly agree, but it is pretty simple and straightforward that today's cruisers compare to yesterday's heavies, sometime favorably. This is apples to apples:

Marshall broke Liston's jaw at 180...did any 180 pound man break Usyk's jaw?
Leotis Martin was 199 when he beat Liston...what 199 pound man beat Usyk?

Sonny Liston's two signature wins were against Patterson, who weighed 189 and 195
Eddie Machon was 196 when Liston beat him
Zora Foley was 198 when Liston beat him

So if we are judging important opponents OVER 200, then I already like Usyk one win over Joshua against Liston's two against Cleveland Willams+a washed up Non Valdez.

Apple to apples.


A couple of other non-Liston examples:
Cooper badly knocked down Ali at 185....did any 185 pound man badly knock down Usyk?
Schmeling knocked down and broke Louis' jaw at 192...did any 192 pound man knocked won and break Usyk's jaw?

Usyk is very comparable to historical heavies.

 

It's not quite apples to apples, IMO.

First, because nobody of any size whatsoever beat Usyk.

Now, if you're asking what kind of 185 pound man beat David Haye...well, perhaps the kind of 185 pound man who weighs 200+ pounds today?

Or again, maybe not. Since they don't train alike back then and now, despite similarities on the scale. Maybe Cooper is actually a modern lightheavyweight. Or maybe he's something else. It's hard to know what a modern nutritionist and S&C team working with Cooper from the amateurs onward would make out of him.

Cooper as he was, it's hard to know. Is a natural 185 pounder who's never trained with weights, never used steroids, etc. more like a modern rehydrating lightheavyweight? Or would such a fighter perform more like a modern heavyweight, except lacking some of the strength? Or would he just be a disappointing fighter who doesn't fit clearly anywhere? Or-- Well, there are all kinds of options.

 

I am pretty sure we are mostly agreeing, so I will leave things here.

 

Because Marshall broke his jaw, it had no chance of staying intact against much bigger punchers like Patterson, Williams, Dejohn, etc right? Like I said it's meaningless especially the circumstances behind it. He was in his 7th pro fight, and said to be laughing by numerous witnesses when Marshall cut him, and if you watch footage of Marshall (specifically against Johnson) you can see him doing his goofy antics, so I don't think it's unreasonable for a younger, greener, Liston to be caught laughing.

The Martin loss is even more meaningless. Liston was but a coke addicted shell of himself and according to Foreman sick with the flu.

At the youngest he was 39 years old. He was most likely somewhere in the 40s. If one goes by the 1950 census he would be 46/47. Doctor's estimates have him between 43 and 46 at that time.

Let's say he was 39 years old at the time of his loss. Do you hold Ali's losses to Berbick and Holmes against him? He was 39 and 38 for them respectively. Do you hold Tyson's loss to Williams and McBride against him? He was 38 against them.

 

Liston was considered huge back then, Usyk is bigger than him and better in every way except power, Liston was known as strong, but it was against 185lbs men or scared men on the back foot, Cleveland Williams had him hurt and Liston’s coach sprayed a suspicious substance on his gloves in the corner at the end of the round

 

Usyk is a very good fighter and a fine boxer but I just sense that if Sonny could corner and blast out Patterson, a fighter who possessed some of the best hand speed in the divisions history he's going to get to Usyk too. Sonny's jab is such a controlling weapon in the ring that Usyk will have a hard time getting around it , Liston's boxing ability is underrated sometimes .I know Usyk's got the Joshua win but that's not looking as good as it once did and I doubt AJ could get to the 4th round with Liston.

 

Untrue.

He faced literally 4 opponents who were 185 or less. His power was compared favorably to Foreman's by numerous opponents and with the exception of Cleveland Williams (who was nowhere near as dangerous) he was known as the hardest puncher of his era.

This is a myth debunked countless times. If it actually happened, Williams and Liston wouldn't have remained good friends and certainly wouldn't have taken a picture together. https://www.boxingoverbroadway.com/wp-content/uploads/Liston-Benbow-Williams.jpg

Liston did not spray a "suspicious substance on his gloves" on any fight. Only fight you could make an argument for is against Ali, and Ali himself and Dundee dismissed it as a crock.

 

I know about Wepner, but wonder if being rendered soon unconscious disguises how hard one thinks a guy punches, as opposed to the sustained beating Liston gave him. What other guys said Liston hit harder than Foreman? I have always thought it was about the same.

I never heard that Ali & team said Liston did not cheat-then what did they Ali's temporary the blindness to? Can you link to some sources? Thanks Swag.

 

I disagree. Only person who beat Wilder was Tyson Fury, a H2H monster who went life and death in two fights and found himself on the canvas 4 times.

Wilder would never lose to a Ruiz imo.

 

Wepner was not rendered unconscious by Foreman either.

Scrap Iron Johnson, and Johnny Tocco.

"People said Liston put liniment on his gloves to blind Ali, but that was a crock."

Source: https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/liston-didn-t-blind-ali-6987354.html

 

Martin (a decent heavyweight) was in his prime and losing on the cards when he caught a 90 year old Liston. It’s not fair to say no 180 pound man did xyz…they didn’t fight any man that weight. I can assure you a smaller man can do a lot of damage. Look at Canelo

 

Wilder nearly lost to an Ortiz but he was given extra time to recover

 

Wilder may have suffered a knockdown at most but I doubt even that would've happened. Ortiz was also given additional time to recover after Wilder Floored him.

In any event, being hurt against Ortiz, is a lot better than being knocked the **** out by a last minute substitute, unranked, out of shape, chubster.

 

No he isn't. The competition those fighters faced were so much better than anything Usyk has seen period.
Usyk best opponents at heavyweight probably wouldn't have been ranked in the top ten of the division in the 60's especially the 70's and 80's.
I was writing well before his 1st Loss Anthony Joshua isn't a good fighter , and would be exposed by the first well schooled fighter he faced. While almost everyone was writing he's the greatest heavyweight in history.
The man simply wasn't very good, and than we learned he isn't very determined when things aren't going his way.
Chrisma? Please. If these are the two fighters that elevate Usyk to being on the level of past ATG who actually proved their worth in the division you're being very short sighted. Usyk wasn't knocked down by or probably K'oed by opponents like Cooper, Marshall, Martin Schmeling or Foley is simply because he never faced any fighter as capable as they were. Its been proven a thousand times in boxing when a fighter is 200 pounds and above facing a fighter who's much bigger, the better skilled fighter wins. Competition is the major difference in today's boxing. In today's game the fighters are very good or very well managed. Either way because the competition is so poor its hard to get a definitive read on fighters like Mayweather, Lomachenko, Wilder, Joshua, Canelo, and with Usyk. They only look good because their competition is so weak.
Lomo, Joshua, Wilder, Canelo , were exposed.
Mayweather Jr. Was smart enough to avoid the fighters that could've exposed him, with him resorting to fighting a guy like McGregor to just get a 50th win.
Usyk didn't look great against Joshua, and Joshua isn't a great fighter in the 1st place. Or very good to be honest.
To compare Usyk to Sonny Liston after only two heavyweight fights is beyond premature, and is simply hero worshipping.
Liston in my opinion is far and away would be the best opponent at any weight Usyk faced.
Liston beats Usyk in my opinion. Probably before they even enter the ring. Usyk never had to deal with no one as skilled or physical. And s no one as close to the intimidation factor as Liston would be.
Usyk isn't prime Ali, and Liston was much better than Anthony Joshua.