Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

"Size" isnt always black and white. Both Rahman and Ike could lose some belly and chest fat, it's not like they were Greek Gods. Ike was also clearly roiding up.

 

The only interesting thing about this match is the anatomical differences and the Rocks style drawing fighters out of there center of balance

Liston- the longest reach
Marciano- the shortest reach

Marciano's style was to set back over his back leg and lean slightly back and stay low drawing his opponent forward and into his power

 

The point wasn't that roid muscle isn't real. It was a callback to earlier threads we've had discussing if people caught with them should even count for h2h discussions. I mean, I don't think a lot of people use Lance Armstrong for h2h biking discussions.

 

Rahman didn`t have a jab like Liston`s or his vicious hook.

 

Or just banish them from discussions for cheating? I mean getting caught once because of a misunderstanding, took medicine the doctor recommended because you didn't know it was banned (Toney), tainted food, etc, that can be forgiven with an asterisk* permanently on your name. But after 2-3+ instances where you are either caught or it's pretty damn obvious you're still doping, what makes you any different from a guy who rigged a card game at a casino or a guy who paid off the refs to win a basketball game?

At that point I really could care less what they look like without extra assistance.

 

Liston wasn’t smaller then those guys he just didn’t have modern training methods. Rahman would weigh anywhere between 195-205 in 1960. They trained down like men train up today. Lot of cardio. Liston also had a longer reach. Plus most men today add inches onto their height and are usually not their listed height. Very rare that’s an honest number.

 

True, but I think there is a genuine difference with muscle gained via PEDs. Especially when comparing with someone not training for size.

 

Valid question for sure. I certainly don’t think Wlad or Lewis perform as well in years past without modern training methods. Big men were much more awkward without modern training.

 

Marciano and Liston were 1950s fighters. And among 1950s fans and legit boxing people who saw both careers pan out in real time.. most of them favoured Marciano over Liston.

And neither guy ever fought after that. So nothing should have really changed that.

Long after both Sonny and Rocky retired, The magazine debates and top ten lists right through the Ali era often listed Sonny, rather unfairly, completely outside the top ten altogether. He was behind men like gene Tunney. And this was when Sonny was living memory to the fans.

However by the 1980s, after Ali retired, & once that generation of boxing people began die out…a new generation of fans who grew up with the Tyson era there was a new interest in Sonny Liston as the last intimidating monster man. Sonny’s rep grew all over again. Excuses were made and a focus on the rise of Sonny Liston and what he “might” have been began again.

It was like the conclusion to the Legend of Sonny was reevaluated in the name of fashion or something.

Now I am not saying anyone is wrong here. Sonny was a fabulous contender, an exciting force on film. He beat Floyd Patterson more thoroughly than anyone else ever did.

But it remains that for those who saw it lived it and were there.. For a full decade after he retired Sonny really was not rated among the all time greats. Wether that was to do with the disappointment of him not being a long serving champion I do not know. But his prowess in relation to established top ten heavyweight champions was not as valued as it now is.

 

Not to mention...KO Power- Liston ?

Sonny had a 73 % KO ratio, Rocky had an 87 % KO ratio


and...chin-Liston ?

Liston was stopped three times, Marciano was unbeaten.


At any time during Marciano's career, Marciano wins.

But assuming the best versions of each, this is a pick'em fight IMO.

Based on grit and determination, if I HAD to pick, I would lean slightly towards Marciano.

 

In my non-expert, hardly know anything opinion, I think Liston takes a dive ordered by the mob and Rocky advances to 50-0

 

Or they have become much better at recruiting the correct larger athletes, ones who had balance, quicks and flow. You can only train so much into an athlete. The majority of the "stuff" has to already be there. See: Tyson Fury.

 

Here are a few experts discussing Patterson-Liston I. Both Marciano and Louis talk about how they would fight Patterson and Liston.

Here's how boxing-world personalities look at the Floyd Patterson Sonny Liston heavyweight fight:

Rocky Marciano - "If I were to fight Patterson, I would swarm all over him in one of the corners and try to knock him out. If I let him stay in the center of the ring I'd be in trouble.

"Against Liston I'd try to get inside and whack him around the body until he tired and then I'd go for the head. The big problem would be escaping that terrific left jab. Their contrasting styles make it a toss-up."

Ingemar Johansson - "If you don't go in after Patterson, he will come after you. I think he will have to try and stay on top of Liston.

Sonny is big and strong, but if you put him on the defensive, he closes up a little".

Jim Braddock - "If Floyd keeps moving to Sonny's right all the time, Liston won't be able to land that left and he might get a little panicky and start to press. This fight could go 15 rounds, and, if it does, Floyd has to outbox him."

Jack Dempsey - "I have leaned toward Liston, but if Floyd comes in at 185-187 pounds, he will have the speed and enough punching power to cut Liston down."

Doc Kearn - "I'm not so sure about the big guy, but Patterson might be able to hit harder."

Ezzard Charles - "It should be a good, close fight but I can't predict the winner."

Joe Louis - "If I were in my prime, I would plan to use only two kinds of punches against Patterson -Left jab and right cross. I would try to hustle him and make him circle to his left, his weak side. He can be hit then. He's better going to his right to use his left hook skill, sometimes savagely.

"I would not jab with Liston because that possibly is what he does best. I would try to keep him off balance and fight in a semi-crouch. I would hit him with left, or right, hooks to the body, not concentrating on one big punch to the chin until maybe the fifth round. Against either man, I would not expect an early knockout."

Archie Moore - "I like Patterson."

Cassius Clay - "My prediction is Liston."

Roy Harris (who fought both) - "I would give Floyd a good chance if I knew he would come in at 185 pounds or less. He can't afford to sacrifice speed for strength by coming in at 195. With speed he can
outflurry Sonny and outbox him.

"But I have to go along with Sonny's ammunition. Sooner of later he will catch Floyd, and my guess is that it will be in six or seven rounds."

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I think it was a shame Sonny was shrouded in so much mystery and that he did not land any big fights as an ex champion that might have told us he was better than what happened in Maine and Miami.

Ali is the greatest heavyweight champion, but even so, it would have been nice to measure Liston outside of Ali had there been more depth to his resume.

Had he destroyed Ernie Terrell and Joe Frazier after losing to Ali, fought guys like Bonavena and Quarry or Ellis.. before his untimely death or loss to Leotis Martin then Sonny really would deserve to be favoured against most all time great fighters.

I am asking myself who couldn’t have beaten the guys Sonny beat before he fought Floyd Patterson.

you really have to go some to make world beaters out of Roy Harris and Wayne Bethea.

Even strongest wins over Foley and Machen, while impressive, don’t seem beyond the reach of many other often disregarded champions.

As good as he was, I just wish there was more to go on Sonny Liston. Was he really too good to win a really competitive fight with any lesser man than Muhammad Ali?

 

Nah look at basketball athletes thirty years ago. The seven footers were stiff and awkward compared to today’s seven footers. It’s all because of advanced training now that wasn’t available then. Otherwise why didn’t the big men of the day rule? They were recruited heavily into boxing because the big men were always big draws.