So I was bored watching an Ali fight...

Look, why not come out and straight up say where you rate him all time ? You're certainly entitled to your opinion ..

 

I'm with you on both accounts .. not a list person as well ..

 

Personally, I don't know if he would make my top 10, if I took the time to make such lists.
Kenny Norton, who was, by no means, much beyond a club fighter gave him three tough fights just because he jabbed when Ali jabbed. In my mind that puts guys with good jabs in the hunt- like Louis and Tunney. (Before you say it...Ali's movement didn't trouble Norton much and it would trouble Louis less.) The idea that he would beat Lewis and Wlad relies on the idea that they would not jab with him; Ali never did anything in his career that would suggest that he could successfully close distance and push a fight. Those guys would jab then step back and catch him looking to re set or they would take his jab and then hook off their own. And we all know the legendary Ali prowess when it came to blocking hooks.
You have to put the Ali cult into perspective. Norton and Frazier became great because they gave Ali hard fights and that is how the greatness of Ali was explained and justified. Otherwise, on their own merits, they did nothing to define themselves as stand out fighters. Their merit has always been defined in terms of what it means to the Ali legacy. Same with George Foreman...he beat Frazier who is great because he fought Ali and Norton who is great because he beat Ali. Yet Foreman struggled with Peralta because of his lack of ability to cut the ring, which suddenly became world class when he fought Ali, but was forgotten by the time he fought a terrified, exhausted kid with a spray on tan known as Tommy Morrison.
When it comes to Ali there are too many hitches in the giddyup for me to rate him all that highly as a fighter. As a salesman, #1. For heart and courage, he's up there. His courage and his willingness to fight are beyond question. But he is not what he claimed he was.

 

Interesting post and I applaud you for having the nerve to make you point knowing much of the potential blowback .. that said there is much I disagree with but I'm not here to debate you , allow others ..

 

Club fighter?

Ken Norton entered the Ring top 10 in 1972 and was still rated as high as the Ring's #2 contender in 1979. He was one of the top heavyweights in the world (in one of the better decades) for nearly a decade.

Go away. Seriously. You destroyed whatever point you tried to make in your second sentence.

You're beyond ill-informed.

 

Again, two great heavyweights who hated to be jabbed ... Lennox Lewis and Wlad Klitschko. Freaking Mariusz Wach went the distance with Wlad because he jabbed with him. Zeljko Mavrovic went the distance with Lewis because he jabbed with him. Ray Mercer nearly beat Lewis because he jabbed with him. Manny Steward had to beg Wlad to throw punches because freaking Eddie Chambers was jabbing with him.

And if you want to see Ali close the distance and push a fight, you can begin with, I don't know nearly all his fights. Did he close the distance and push the fight with Liston? Kinda. Did he close the distance push the fight with Terrell? Kinda. Did he close the distance and push the fight with Williams? Kinda. With Lyle? Kinda. With Quarry? Kinda.

Somehow Ali managed to stop Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry (twice) ... without closing the distance and pushing them back?

Jesus man, watch a fight.

 

Excellent post. Ali's opponents did become "great" because they fought him or extended him. It was/is a "cult", he was a good fighter, but he was a guy who enjoyed huge physical advantages in size, speed, and strength in the 60s, and when he didn't, in the 70s he had a much tougher time. You'll get a lot of shrill, emotional insults from the cult, but you nailed it with this one.

 

Ah yes, the cult of Rudi Lubbers still meets every Wednesday.

It used to be Tuesdays, but the cult of Alfredo Evangelista got there first when they put out a new sign-up sheet.

 

Actually, Ali tended to do worse in the 1970s because he was a 60s fighter.

He turned pro in 1960. There weren't a ton of guys in any division who turned pro in 1960 who were still fighting for World Championships at the end of the 70s.

Some fans tend to forget that. How good were Jimmy Ellis and Nino Benvenuti around 1977 or 78?

 

So basically Ali, Frazier and Foreman were all over rated fighters, not worthy of all time great rankings ... interesting ..

Joe Frazier was a warrior with as much heart as any man that ever laced up gloves. He was exceptionally well conditioned, had a murderous left hook, was extremely strong for a 205 pound fighter, had a very under rated chin considering he was a small swarmer fighting blind in one eye his whole career and was the best active heavyweight in the world from 1967 to 1973 .. that's why he's considered great. In addition to the men he fought, others that sparred with Joe like Lyle, Holmes and Norton all said Frazier was a beast.

George Foreman may have been the naturally strongest heavyweight champion ever. He was without question a brutal two handed puncher with a terrific chin, a powerful jab and killer instinct.

Norton was hell for any non-brutal puncher .. He gave Ali hell three times post exile and a prime Holmes as well ( who I guess was another over rated nobody ) .. Ali defeated a still deadly Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Chuvalo, Quarry, Bonavena, Lyle, Shavers, Bugner, Ellis as well as Frazier/Foreman and Norton ... either you feel the entire generation of 1960 to 1980 blew or maybe you're underrating Ali ..

 

This is something you'd expect Mark Durham a k a Redrooster to write about Leonard. Quite hardcore.

 

Even if you think Liston, Frazier and Foreman are overrated, or wasn't that much at the time Ali fought them, it's very hard to deny that he cleaned out two generations of contenders. To beat everyone bar one on two of The Ring's annual top 10 with 10 years in between (1963 and 1973) could just be unmatched. So that's a great achievement even if you believe that Liston, Frazier and Foreman weren't that special when Ali beat them.

Now if you happen to believe they were something special, you're looking at a truly exceptional resume.

You don't need Ali's skills as salesman to sell that.

 

Oct 20 1973, ABC's Wide World Of Sports.

 

You shouldn't take Pat M posts too seriously, he's just a troll.