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Who's Greater: Roberto Duran or Muhammad Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by George Crowcroft, Jun 13, 2020.

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Kid Bacon All-Time-Fat Full Member

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Ali hands down

Duran is also an ATG and in some issues his resume is even better than Ali's, but also there are simply way too many question marks, for example:

- The infamous "No more fight" episode. A greatest can't just quit out of frustration and Ali never did.
- Hearns knocked Duran's socks off; Ali was never rocked like that.

Kid Bacon, Jun 12, 2022

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SwarmingSlugger Active Member Full Member

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Duran is definitely greater, Ali had fundamental flaws in his game which led to his condition later in life. Durans only problem at times was lack of focus from partying too much and lax training.
Duran went toe toe with bigger men, Ali with the exception of George Foreman didnt he couldnt figure out Ken Norton over 3 fights and its questionable if he won a single fight. Duran was always the smaller , older man in the Fab 4 and still did very well he went 15 with Hagler something Leonard and Hearns never did. Duran is no doubt greater.

SwarmingSlugger, Jun 12, 2022

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PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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I got with Ali on this one just on competition and the wins at that level, which I always thought Duran lacked. Those type of wins against that level. Liston, Frazier, Foreman etc.

PernellSweetPea, Jun 12, 2022

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Themessiah El Jefe Full Member

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This is so hard to choose, i consider both of them the Goats

Themessiah, Jun 12, 2022

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Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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Both were great fighters, everyone has a difference of opinion.

Richard M Murrieta, Jun 12, 2022

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MarkusFlorez99 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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Duran

MarkusFlorez99, Jun 12, 2022

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JohnnyBriton New Member Full Member

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Can’t compare the two. Impossible to judge who’s better based on the fact they were in two different eras, two different weight classes, and two vastly different career trajectories.

JohnnyBriton, Jun 12, 2022

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Journeyman92 Mauling Mormon’s banned Full Member

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Duran. Easily.

Journeyman92, Jun 12, 2022

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Kid Bacon All-Time-Fat Full Member

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I just saw Duran vs Hearns and I stand for my early opinion. Tommy absolutely demolished Duran in a way Ali never was. Duran went down like a sack of potatos....

Duran is an ATG, one of the very best but there are some questions marks in his resume. As much as I like him, he is a step below Ali, who was never KOed.

Kid Bacon, Jun 12, 2022

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PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Richard M Murrieta said: ↑

Both were great fighters, everyone has a difference of opinion.
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everyone has favorites and personalities they like. It is almost political.

PernellSweetPea, Jun 12, 2022

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titanic Boxing Addict Full Member

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titanic, Jun 13, 2022

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MarkusFlorez99 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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Kid Bacon said: ↑

I just saw Duran vs Hearns and I stand for my early opinion. Tommy absolutely demolished Duran in a way Ali never was. Duran went down like a sack of potatos....

Duran is an ATG, one of the very best but there are some questions marks in his resume. As much as I like him, he is a step below Ali, who was never KOed.
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He was well above his natural weight class. And even then, he beat Barkley and Leonard, the same Barkley and Leonard that were able to beat Hearns

MarkusFlorez99, Jun 13, 2022

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Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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George Crowcroft said: ↑

My #6&7 P4P, and the hardest part of my all-time top 10 to split. Both of these two have storied careers which will be talked about for decades to come. However this should be quite a self-explanatory question TBH, but here's my take on their respective achievements:

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An absolute animal, and the primed, hundred and thirty-five pound version, [url]is my personal pick for the best ever[/url]. He is, IMO, the greatest LW ever, bar-none. Wins over Kobayashi, Buchanan, DeJesús, Thompson, Ishimatsu, Bizzarro Ortiz and Fernandez cement this, along with the H2H stature I hold him in. Although that's just his LW résumé, on top of those he has wins over Mamby, Brooks, Palomino, Cuevas, Moore and Iran Barkley. All this, and I haven't even mentioned his crowing achievement. Sugar Ray Leonard is, IMO, a top 15 P4P fighter, and a lock for top 3 at WW. When Duran jumped up two weights and beat him, he scored what is indisputably the best win ever, IMO.

He also holds a win over Ernesto Marcel. I wouldn't look too far into this, since both were really green, but Marcel would go on to be a top 10 FW and an absolute monster H2H. Due to the circumstances of the fight, I'd say it's probably akin to Choynski's win over Jack Johnson, or Torrecampo's win over Manny Pacquiao. In other words, it's a good win, but not something you'd get the champagne out over.

Despite being the 'worst', H2H, of the Fab 4, the reason he's cited as the greatest is because he's the smallest. Beating Leonard and doing the best against Hagler whilst the smallest is very important to his legacy, and no less than the fact he's a four weight champion. In fact, IIRC; he was the first non-American to be one (a four weight champ).

Now, it'd be highly disingenuous to ignore Durán's losses. The infamous 'No Mas' affair is probably the third most famous fight in boxing history (ironically after The Rumble in the Jungle and the Thrilla in Manilla) and Duran came out on the wrong side of history here. After apexing in the first Leonard fight, Duran ballooned up and had to cut an unholy amount of weight. The return bout with SRL led to a bloated, unhealthy Duran getting clowned and schooled before Duran's bully-mindset kicked in and he decided he wanted no more. Hence, 'No Mas'. After this his interest in the sport waned and he came in in shape infrequently.

Is it fair to write-off the losses to Sims, Laing, Benitez, Leonard II and Hearns as a combination of a lack of motivation/discipline, and him being past his prime? Personally, I think it is, but given what he'd do after these losses; I think it's a very interesting debate.

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Ahhhh the self-proclaimed Greatest. Not that he is, but he's close! The GOAT HW with virtually no arguments, for mine. In his prime he was an athletic freak, with an uncanny sense of distance and Einstein-level ring IQ. Mix in his granite chin, decent power and sharp straight punching and you have the best HW H2H ever IMO.

That's not why he's the GOAT HW IMO, though. It's his endless list of names from the best era in the division's history. Jones, Patterson, Chuvalo, Williams, Terrell, Folley, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, both Foster's, Norton, Wepner, Bugner, Lyle, Young, Shavers and Neon Leon, and again, this is WITHOUT his best wins. His crowing achievements are clearly the wins vs Liston, Foreman and Frazier. That, right there, is a five-piece collection over a third of my remaining HWs. If Ali is #1, that means he's beaten a third of the other nine.... madness!

As a HW, he obviously couldn't jump weights, but he could beat guys both bigger and smaller than him. Which he did. He also made a combination of 19 title defences during both of his careers.

Unlike Duran, Ali has a fair amount of controversy around these wins. Especially as his legend grew, and ability shrank. Liston II, Young, Norton III, Shavers and Frazier II & III are less impressive due to a multitude of differing reasons. He also has a couple of losses which aren't a good look. Losing to Spinks and Norton is bad IMO, albeit not as bad as losing to Sims and Laing.

So? What say you? I think Duran was a better fighter, and didn't reach his ceiling. Imagine if fights with Arguello, Cervantes, Benitez and Pryor were made during Duran's prime! That's another 4 ATGs I firmly believe he would've beaten, and all four were (to my knowledge) talked about in the late 70s/early 80s. However, despite this, I think Ali was slightly greater. He doesn't have the plethora of losses to be excused and his résumé is a bit deeper. There's also no fighters Ali really missed during his era.
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P4P It has to be Duran for me. I have Ali at the top of the heavyweights ,and Duran at no4 on the lightweights, so in that respect Ali gets it.

Liston73, Jun 13, 2022

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Philly161 "Fundamentals are the crutch of the talentless" banned Full Member

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Ali and honestly I don't think it's as close as people say. I love Duran but Ali was never beaten in his prime, and has the amazing resume he has despite losing several years of his prime.

When you compare their later career upsets, I think Ali over foreman stands heads and shoulders above Duran over Barkley. Duran vs Barkley is one of my favorite fights, but Barkley is not George foreman. Also, tbf, Barkley probably edged that fight whereas there is no doubt who deserves to win in Zaire.

I personally prefer Duran slightly but I think Ali is greater based on resume.

Philly161, Jun 13, 2022

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PernellSweetPea said: ↑

everyone has favorites and personalities they like. It is almost political.
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Agreed.

Richard M Murrieta, Jun 13, 2022

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