Mayweather’s schooling of Canelo vs Bivol’s

The argument that was made by some is that Canelo has less of an argument to winning round 1 than rounds 2-4. A certain "special" someone actually had the gall to claim that Canelo has "zero" argument to winning round 1. (the same guy who thought you couldn't score shoulder shots) I already gave Canelo Round 1, so if Canelo did better in rounds 2-4 than Round 1 as some people claim, then you do the math. I'm exposing faulty logic and the auto-scoring against Canelo that is so prevalent around here.

 

So the way you score fights is by scoring one round of a fight and then using anecdotal evidence to auto score future rounds.

 

Was this the same 'special' person who was trying to score 'bicep bombs'?
The only one with faulty logic is you...
You ran away from that thread at the round 1 stage. you had to because you can't score them for Canelo even if you count the shoulder punches that you constantly go on about despite trying to count arm punches as well.
At the time I said many had it a total shut out and I gave one round to Canelo but felt 3 rounds tops could be given if you're giving Canelo the benefit of the doubt on closer rounds. You were still asserting that 7-5 that the judges scored as being perfectly reasonable and you rightly got clowned for that assertion.

 

Not, not at all. The way I score fights is by scoring the fight. See my detailed breakdown of Canelo vs Floyd as an example. That's me scoring a match. In this case, I simply haven't gone back through rounds 2-12 because we haven't fully dealt with Round 1 in a satisfactory manner. Moving on to Round 2 before dealing with Round 1 would be putting the cart before the horse. There's a purpose to my resistance to scoring 2-12. The lack of intellectual honesty about what happened in Round 1 is the main problem. Even after it was demonstrated that I knew that shoulder shots were scoring shots while others didn't, which should have been a clue that I know how to score rounds while others did not, it became apparent that the people I was discussing Round 1 with were deep in delusion as it pertains to how well Canelo did in that round. This wasn't just a matter of people scoring Round 1 to Bivol, which as I've admitted is arguable. It's the idea that Round 1 was so one-sided in favor of Bivol that it actually couldn't reasonably be scored for Canelo which creates the problem. We're seeing the same kind of problem with Canelo Floyd round 3 as well. It's one thing to disagree on a round but still recognize that he round is close and could be scored either way. It's another to put blinders on and convince yourself that there was only one winner in a close round that at the very least could go either way which is utterly absurd. If they were not willing to be honest about their missteps (not knowing that shoulder shots could be scored, ignoring who the aggressor and ring general was, ignoring that Bivol wasn't landing clean and Canelo was landing the heavier more effective shots, etc) then why would I put more time an effort to go through other rounds if they weren't willing to deal with that?

Rather than just post a scorecard, which I've done in the past, this time I'm taking a different approach of scoring 1 round at a time and not moving on to the next round until we deal with what happened in that round. Think of it this way, the horse is supposed to pull the cart, if the horse is not moving and refuses to walk forward, the cart isn't going anywhere. In this case, as it pertains to Canelo Bivol, the horse isn't moving until Round 1 is dealt with properly, and no amount of taking the cart and putting it in front of the horse is going to get anyone anywhere. The horse is far more powerful than the humans sitting in the cart, and if the horse refuses to move, the cart isn't goint anywhere. That's where we are as it pertains to Canelo vs Bivol round 1. I said I'd be willing to score the other rounds and deal with round 2-12 but only after there's progress with Round 1 and more honesty about what happened there.

 

Just to be clear, I wasn't refering to you, space dude. Though of course you were one of the ones who insisted shoulder shots couldn't be scored, only to come to realize that you were quite mistaken. And lets not forget, that you were the one who argued (before you realized shoulder shots could be scored) that shoulder/bicep shots could still count towards "effective aggression". That's what makes your non-shoulder "upper arm" shot argument irrelevent, because even if a shot misses the shoulder and lands on the upper arm (as long as the part of the arm it lands on isn't being used to block, like an elbow for example) then even if you don't consider it a scoring shot per se, it still can "count" towards effective aggression. As I stated, shots that miss the shoulder but still land on a part of the arm not used for blocking still "matters" as it pertains to the scoring of the round. If you have a close round, whether you count a bicep bomb as a landed shot or not, it still can influence who wins a round. Whether it strengthens one's effective aggression in a round or if it's counted as a scoring shot by hitting at least part of the shoulder. Either way, it "counts" which was your point initially before you realized that shoulders were in fact part of the scoring zone.

But of course the shot in question as it pertains to Round 1, the big shoulder/bicep bomb near the end of the round did in fact hit the shoulder, and the only shots that I counted in Round 1 that hit the arm happened to hit the shoulder, a fact that you continue to ignore as it pertains to "theoretical arm shots" that missed the shoulder, shots that once again could still contribute to a fighter to winning the round (as part of effective aggression as you pointed out in relation to shoudler shots prior to you knowing that shoulder shots could be scored) even if they aren't counted as scoring shots per se. So you're arguing about the scoring of non-shoulder arm shots is really just a desperate attempt by you to deflect from you not knowing what a scoring shot was, by bringing up theoretical punches rather than the specific punches that I counted in Round 1 that Canelo landed that you thought weren't scoring shots but I knew they were. There's no getting around that rocketman. You can talk about arm punches till your blue in the face, but it won't erase the fact that you were thoroughly exposed about not knowing what the scoring zones were and what is considered a scoring shot.

As far as me "running away" from the Round 1 discussion, I could make the same argument about you or the OP in the infamous topic who refused to deal with the errors on what was initially counted or denied as landing only to be schooled on them by yours truly. Pretending that shots landed for Bivol that were blocked, or pretending that clear shoulder/bicep bombs didn't land on the shoulder is worse than running away. That's being intellectually dishonest and deficient, it seems that it's mor about pride than anything of not being able to admit when you're wrong, as you seem to be displaying as well. It's best to own it when you mess up, give credit the person who schooled you on how to score rounds and shoulder shots (me) rather than continue to dig yourself a deeper hole by deflecting onto irrelevent points that have nothing to do with the actual punches that occurred in round one that I just so happened to count quite accurately that the OP intially ignored, then refused to come to terms with the video and photographic evidence. I dealt with those punches head on, I wasn't avoiding anything. It was you, the OP and others who continue to deflect and demonstrate dishonesty about what happened in that round, what punches should be scored, what punches were blocked, etc. Fortunately ellerbe provided some much needed objectivity to the situation. In some cases, you budged a little bit, like on that jab that you admitted landed, even though you refused to "score" it claiming it didn't land well enough. Baby steps.

 

Too many fallacy arguments to deal with so will just dismantle one or two.
You are just wrong on nearly everything here...
Firstly you were trying to count shoulder and bicep bombs with me. at no point in the conversation was is about effective aggregation you are conflating what we were discussing with your seperate debate with Q. We were both arguing very different points and you are trying to reframe after the fact.
You didn't know yourself shaow you were trying to count arm punches as scoring. The difference is I conceeded that small point in that thread and even in CST's recent thread I conceedethat fact but again you pretend you were right all along when it doesn't make any difference to how the round was scored.
Like the Flat Earth thread you ran away. the onus is on you shadow as you made the thread and made wild assertions that you could not defend. unlike the flat earth thread where you were completely dismantled. with the Caneo thread you had one tiny victory of scoring shoulder shots and the other 70+ pages was you being destroyed and reframing your narrative every few pages. It is irrelevant as scoring shoulder punches does not change the outcome of the first round. Canelo still loses handily.
For all your clear lying and manipulation you cannot get passed reality which to the vast majority was a schooling.
Also you use an appeal to authority fallacy constantly referring to ellerbe who like you or me is just another poster and not an authority on anything. Your reputation shadow proceeds you the only person fooled by your nonsense is yourself.

 

It wasn't a "tiny" victory lol. The 2 shots that I counted in the final minute of round 1 clearly hit the shoulder. The big one with Bivol on the ropes hit the shoulder and the bicep which is why I called it a shoulder/bicep bomb. No amount of twisting things is gonna change that bud. You continue to bring up flat earth, other irrelevent points, trying to shift focus on to "theoretical arm shots", while patting yourself on the back to make you feel better. It won't change what happened. I was correct to count those 2 shots that hit the shoulder in the final minute of round 1 as scoring shots that were both ignored by the OP in his summary. You said they weren't scoring shots because you ignorantly didn't think shoulder shots could be scored which was quite humorous indeed. I also did well to correct the record on a number of shots that were counted by the OP as landed for Bivol that actually missed or were blocked which I showed from the overhead camera and I brought to your attention other Canelo shots that were ignored by the OP that I showed clearly landed, even one you admit landed which the OP didn't list in his summary. It was a thorough schooling of what kind of shots can be scored and me bringing up shots that were landed by Canelo but ignored by the OP in his summary.

 

No Shadow.... again you conflate I coneeded that shoulder shots were scoring but again you deflect from the fact that the GIF you presented was a punch on the top of the bicep.
You didn't school anyone as you started the thread claiming 7-5 was a reasonable assessment by the judges (appeal to authority fallacy) you then concentrated on the first four rounds being scored as being reasonable (another appeal to authority fallacy) Again you reframed on the first round and again you were correct about shoulder punches but wrong about bicep bombs as you put it. Yet again you somehow think this was a schooling despite Canelo still losing the round whether we count those punches or not.
You were schooled because you had to reframe your argument several times as clearly detailed above. winning on a detail that doesn't effect the end result is irrelevant however that is the only morsal you can take as it was a very clear and controlled schooling from Bivol.
I reiterate that I'm not hater or a fanboy I'm an adult and can see weakness and strengths even in fighters I like that is just being reasonably objective. I push back on the extremes such as yourself because they're not reasonable positions to take.

 

So you shouldn't be debating anyone saying 7-5 is too close, as you haven't scored all 12 rounds.

 

Again, the bicep bomb at the end of round 1 clearly landed on the shoulder. It's just flat out dishonest to claim that it only hit the bicep. Before you realized that you could score shoulder shots, you made no such assertion that it missed the shoulder. You talk about me reframing things, that's humorous considering your attempt to claim that a punch that clearly landed on the shoulder now didn't after you realized shoulder shots could be scored. This is textbook goal post moving on your part and changing your stance on where it landed based on how wrong you were about what could be scored. I've provided video and screenshots of the punch from the overhead camera showing it hit the shoulder several times.

And another thing that I'm going to bring up just to remind you of how dishonest and desperate you were in that topic. Remember when I shared the link https://www.abcboxing.com/ring-officials-certification-program/

What did you do immediately when I shared that link, where it stated shoulders were part of the scoring zone?

It clearly stated Association of Boxing Commissions, it clearly indicated that those were the judging guidelines for Professional scoring and prize fighting. But yet you, in your utter desperation claimed that the link was only in regards to Amateur boxing. You pulled that amateur BS completely out of your arse, when it was abundantly clear those judging guidelines were regarding professional boxing. Even when pressed that all the references were about professional scoring, you still persisted that it was about amateur boxing. The fact that you insisted it had to be in regards to amateur boxing despite abundantly clear indications that it was about professional prize fights shows the extent that you will go to twist and spin anything in any way possible to try to make you right, even claiming that professional boxing judging guidelines had it to be "about the amateurs" because it just "couldn't be" that I was right about shoulder shots. You were pathetic there bud, especially in your claims that those judging guidelines were for "amateur" boxing when it clearly was professional. You just continued to claim it was amateur over and over again when it was obvious that it was in regards to pro boxing. That more than anything shows how completely delusional and utterly dishonest you are.

 

We're going around in circles with this. I haven't taken a strong stance on the scoring, I watched it live, I know how well Canelo did in rounds 1-4 & round 9. When the judges scores came out, I didn't have a problem with the scores. I expected something like 116-112 Bivol and they were one round off that. Most fans gave Canelo round 9, and the fans were clearly split on rounds 1-4. That all points to there being a path to 7-5. You being in denial of how well Canelo did in those rounds, how fans were split over 1-4 and how the judges scored it is not my problem.

 

A load of white noise...also somebody else posted not yourself. So don't try and take credit you lying weasel.
Also my initial assertion about ABC was an honest mistake as the majority of the website is for amateurs. which when Indid further checking I conceded. That's the difference though shadow you just lie constantly like a madman and conflate anyone else's genuine mistake as a purposeful lie. That's a reflection of you projecting your own personality because that's what you do constantly yourself.
I genuinely believed shoulder punches weren't scoring shot's yet you conflate that I was purposely lying which is just how demented you actually are and how loose you are with facts when it suits you whilst ignoring the laundry list of errors and fallacies you make yourself.
You got thrashed in that thread and Canelo was shut out and schooled and shoulder punches make no difference to the end result.
That is the net result of your schooling....no difference made to the end result.
That sunshine is just the way it is.....

 

Wrong again, and now you're getting mad because I'm exposing you yet again. Don't be mad, rather come clean. You'll feel better. The other guy posted "some" of the text from that website while conveniently omitting the part about shoulder shots being part of the scoring zone. I asked him for a link but he refused to post a link to show the guidelines in their full context. I found the link revealing the part of shoulders being part of the scoring zone. That's what happened. He found the link, he posted "select" text from it, but refused to post the link to the full website. I found the link and posted it. I'm not taking credit for finding the link, I'm only taking credit for being "proved" right from it and actually sharing the link and bringing to everyone's attention the part about shoulders.

An "honest" mistake lol. You were completely DELUSIONAL and in complete denial about it being a pro scoring. You continued to claim it was about amateurs simply because you couldn't cope with being proved wrong so dramatically. You kept going on and on about it being about the amateurs looking like a complete ignormaus lol. You refused to accept it was about the pros when I pointed you to specific parts that referenced pro scoring, you still persisted, "no, shadow is lying, it's about the amateurs". It's all there in the topic. You continued to deny what was plainly obviously repeatedly until you finally conceded you were wrong about that too, just like you were wrong about shoulder shots.

You were completely undressed my man, it was absolutely hilarious seeing you squirm after being proven wrong twice then doubling down over and over again. Now you claim it was an "honest mistake", you don't have an honest bone in your body you complete spin artist! I didn't lie about ANYTHING let alone "constantly" lol. I was right about shoulder shots, I was right about the guidelinse being about pro boxing. Then to try and save face, you switch to "theoretical arm punches" mode which made no sense since you already made it clear that you considered arm punches part of effective aggression anyway. Now you're claiming the shot didn't hit the shoulder. Lies lies lies, lies on top of lies, you are a complete embarrassment and to not own what happened and realize how much of an ass you made of yourself only continues to dig a deeper hole for yourself. You do what liars often do, you take no responsibility for any of your BS or deception, then accuse me of what you're actually doing. And this is no surprise to me, when we first started with the flat earth stuff, it was clear that you had a huge ego and you were very overconfident about your ability to "destroy flat earthers" which you learned the hard way. But that was just the tip of the iceberg. You escaped that with plausible deniability as is often the case with flat earth / globie debates, but where you really exposed yourself was when you tried to hang with me on boxing, where I continue to obliterate and undresss you every step of the way, no matter how you respond by trying to flip it back on me, it won't work. What happened in that topic is already cemented and it's very clear to everyone who the honest broker is and who the manipulative dishonest one is. Accusing me of what you are will not work, it's classic deflection and it's your only course of action at this point because you have been proven wrong so consistently and thoroughly, it's all you have left.

And you were genuinely wrong about that. Lets not forget you mocked me about that, pretending that I was the dumb one who thought shoulder shots could be scored. You were also wrong about the guidelines being amateur and not pro. You called me a liar for that too, only to realize "oops" yet again, you were the one wrong, in denial and bad for coming at me sideways who had it right all along.

Self supporting claims to mask your failures is a desperate manuever. You're in a deep hole, keep hugging yourself and patting yourself on the back. Won't get you out of this funk.

 

I never said Canelo did bad in those rounds. I never said fans weren't split. I never said I take issue with the judges scoring.

I merely said you shouldn't debate the scoring of a fight you haven't scored.

 

So then what are you arguing with me about? I'm not debating the scoring. I'm simply saying the judges scores were close to what I thought the scores should be when I watched it live. I'm not throwing a hissy fit about 115-113. I'm saying that's "fine with me". There's clearly a path to 7-5 given how fans are split over who won 1-4 and with Canelo winning round 9. I don't need to score it to come to that conclusion. That's what the consensus view of rounds 1-4 & 9 reveal. Notwithstanding that some fans even had Canelo winning round 6 and 10 as well.