Was Liston Totally Finished, After Ali 2.?

I'm questioning the reasons you say the WBA for had Mildenberger and Martin being included how's that?

 

No what I do know is that the ratings changed slower back then and when Johnson lost to London he was on his way out of the ratings when Liston beat him in his next fight. What does being "recently rated" have to do with anything?

Its not "what have you done for me" its "what have you done for me LATELY" Liston having beaten ZY and Z years earlier shouldnt have had any bearing on his rating years later.

Even then, the WBA's ratings weren't exactly a representative rating of who was actually the 10 best contenders, as you likely know.

Why was it ridiculous that he was unrated? He wasnt fighting anybody. When Liston fought Clark he was the bigger name which is why he got paid more. Clark had never even been on TV. He was a clubfighter. That being said Liston was unrated because he had two fights in the previous 3 years he had 6 fights against non descript opposition, four of those had been far away from the prying eyes of the American public, none had been televised, and only two had won their previous fight before facing Liston. He wasnt exactly knocking down the door of contenders.

Patterson wasnt coming off back to back losses when he fought Ellis. He was coming off a loss and a draw that a lot of people thought he deserved. Regardless, Liston was offered $50,000 to fight Ellis afterwards and refused.

And ABC gave Liston $25,000 to fight Leotis Martin, the WBA's #3 contender.

And you seem to want to pretend that fighting Amos Johnson who was on his way out of the rankings because he lost his last fight to Brian ****ing London, Elmer Rush, and Henry Clark was lining up some kind of murderers row. If you want to trumpet Liston fighting those guys then thats damning him with feint praise because he was going out of his way to fight weak opposition.

Oh, so now its the tournament. Thats why he wasnt taking these fights that HE WAS OFFERED... Thats what, excuse number 4? 5?

Arguing that the WBA/NBA not ranking doesnt make a you non contender is jousting at windmills. I mean seriously. You are sitting here pretending that WBA had no legitimate reason to not rate Liston. Give me a break. Youve done a better job at poking holes in that argument than I ever could by sitting here lauding his bravery in facing the "recently ranked" Rush and Amos Johnson who had lost his last fight for excessive holding against Brian London... Look, we can agree to disagree if you want to believe that taking on the Willis Earls of the world is a great excuse for turning down THREE offers to fight Jerry Quarry, if taking on the likes of Sonny Moore is an excuse for turning down the highest post championship payday of your career and a shot at the title on television, etc. I was going to say it doesnt take a genius to see what Liston was doing but hell, maybe it does. You see a guy who was letting it all hang out against killers and couldnt get the big fights because everyone was scared of him. I see a guy fighting the least threatening opposition he could that would keep him somewhere near the ratings while avoiding anyone with a heartbeat. When he finally stepped up he got face planted and that was against yet another relatively weak and inconsistent contender. But of course that doesnt count because he was 57 years old at that point...

 

Then question the WBA? Im just agreeing with them. I dont think Liston had done anything to deserve getting into the tournament. He had given up in his two previous championship fights. He hadnt fought anyone worth a **** and was doing so at the ass end of the world so no one could see what he looked like. He was yesterdays news. Why keep recycling him without making him prove himself? When Ali fought Zora Folley in 1967 a groan went up because Folley was considered old and finished as a top contender and yet some on here have argued that Liston should have been rated at the time in light of his victory over Folley nearly a decade earlier. That doesnt make any sense to me. Again, the argument for people wanting Liston in the tournament seems to be "I like him, he should have been in because it would have been interesting to me." Your feelings in 2022 arent taken into account when rating fighters in 1967.

 

Who was offering Sonny Liston fights?

Sonny Liston was blackballed by the WBA and all the states within it. The WBA didn't rate Liston after Ali agreed to a rematch with him in 1964. Liston signed to fight the World Champ and the WBA dropped Liston AND ALI from its ratings.

The New York Times did a piece on Liston in 1967 where he explained he couldn't get a license to box even in California because New York wouldn't license him.

You aren't putting this in context. Nobody with a chance of fighting in the WBA tournament in 1967 (which was everyone in the WBA top 10) was going to fight Sonny LIston first.

The WBA didn't want Liston in the tournament. Liston couldn't even get a license to fight in the states where most of the bouts took place. If you lost to Liston, you were out and he wasn't getting in.

Who in the WBA's top 10 in 1967, was going to accept an invitation to the WBA tournament with the caveat, "BUT FIRST, I'm taking a tuneup wth Sonny Liston in some other country, because he can't get a license here?"

You keep saying all these rated fighters offered him fights and he turned them down. Which rated WBA Fighters offered Sonny Liston a fight and he declined? NAME some.

Amos Johnson was rated #8 by the WBA. For some reason, he agreed to fight Liston in 1966 in Sweden. Liston stopped him. Johnson was bounced from the ratings and Liston wasn't added. That's what happened when you were ranked by the WBA and fought Liston (and lost) during that period.

Elmer Rush was rated #10 in 1966 when he lost to #3 Amos Lincoln. After he lost, Rush was bounced from the top 10. That's when Rush agreed to fight Liston in early 1967, also in Sweden. Liston stopped him. After that, nobody else in the top 10 was going to fight him with tournament invites being handed out.

After the tournament was over, Henry Clark was rated #5 by the WBA. He agreed to fight Liston and was stopped. The WBA finally included Liston in their ratings, all the way up in the top five (and up to top four by year's end) basically because ABC would put Liston on TV and the state athletic commissions had lifted their bans. He'd apparently done his penance.

He wasn't rated because he was blackballed. He didn't get fights with the top contenders because he couldn't fight in states aligned with the WBA. That's why. (That's a pretty good reason why. Makes more sense than he WAS SCARED.)

Who are all these people who offered Liston a fight even though he couldn't get a boxing license in the U.S. until 1968?

 

What LEGITIMATE REASON did the WBA have to drop Liston from its ratings beginning in 1964 when he lost his first fight to Ali?

And I don't see a guy letting it "all hang out against killers" ... I see a guy who was blackballed for FOUR YEARS by what was basically the only sanctioning body at the time ...

A guy who couldn't get a license to fight in any WBA states ... which was basically all of them ...

A guy who tried to get a license in California ... but was turned down because the head of the California athletic commission called the head of the New York commission who said he wouldn't license Liston because of his "mob" ties at the beginning of the decade ...

I see a guy who would fight anyone anywhere he could. And when he managed to get a fight with one ranked fighter in 1966 who would face him (in freaking Sweden), he knocked that guy out. And he still couldn't get a rating.

I see a guy who, the first chance he got to fight a ranked boxer when the ban was lifted, knocked that rated fighter out and he was "magically" placed in the top five (#4) ... probably where he should've been since 1964, had he hadn't been blacklisted.

You honestly think Liston wasn't rated from 1964 to 1968 because LIston was scared?

Being blacklisted by the largest boxing commission in the world (for the EXACT SAME TIME FRAME) and in most of your own country didn't have "anything" to do with the fights he took?

 

Those aren't , "my feelings," I'm not making a case for Sonny who had disgraced himself by taking a dive , in the 2nd Ali fight imo.I was just not convinced by your reasons re Mildenberger and Martin, as you say the WBA made their choices not you ,so I don't want to come across as implying you were responsible for the entrants.

 

Liston got bounced from the WBA ratings in 1964 when he activated his rematch clause against Ali. That's why he was removed from the WBA ratings. The WBA instituted a policy saying they no longer accepted immediate rematches. When Liston activated it and Ali accepted, they were both bounced. That was their reasoning.

Liston didn't return to the WBA ratings for four years. They refused to rank him.

Ali was allowed back into the ratings as a "contender" when Ernie Terrell expressed interest in fighting him. (Which just shows the WBA has been crazy for close to 60 years)

When Liston (and Ali) got removed from the WBA ratings in 1964, the WBA top 10 was filled with names like Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Roger Rischer, Doug Jones and Liston's former sparring partner Ernie Terrell.

Liston wasn't afraid of those guys. He had already (or would) destroy nearly all of them (some more than once). But the WBA wouldn't rate him.

In 1965 and 1966, Williams was removed (after he was shot) and names like Amos Johnson and Elmer Rush entered the WBA top 10. Again, guys who Liston would fight and destroy. For most of 1965, the top two contenders were Floyd Patterson and Zora Folley. It wasn't ancient history that Liston had beaten them. He'd knocked out Patterson in one round two years earlier.

Once again, Liston NEVER received a WBA rating in 1965 or 1966.

In 1967, #2 WBA contender Zora Folley received a title shot against Ali. Ali was stripped for the second time by the WBA, and Floyd Patterson was offered a spot in the WBA tournament. Patterson, who hadn't defeated a ranked fighter since Chuvalo in 1965, was welcomed into the tournament with open arms. Patterson was rated #5. So was Jerry Quarry, who had lost to Machen and drawn with Patterson. Quarry hadn't beaten a top 10 WBA contender at all. He'd only entered the top 10 in May 1967.

Liston, who had knocked out the WBA's #8 contender 11 months before the tournament began, was not rated in 1967 nor did he receive an offer to compete in the tournament.

Anyone who says Liston "didn't deserve" to be rated by the WBA is STONED.

During that time period, their ratings always included people (or an assortment of them) who he'd already dominated.

Considering who the top 10 was during that period, Liston should've been among them.

 

Floyd Patterson did fight a ranked fighter on Sept 20 1966, he stopped Henry Cooper in round 6.

 

Leave me a few of your unpopped kernels will ya? They’re might favourite.

Good discussion actually, some nice facts arising from the dynamic. For any wrong thing said, something very right comes in reply.