Joe Frazier '71 vs. Larry Holmes '82

amateur Larry or Pro Larry?

 

II disagree with most on here. Who did Frazier beat other than a comebacking Ali? Jimmy Ellis? Buster Mathis? Come on. Never fought Norton… never fought Shavers or any of the other big hitters of the 1970’s.

And please… “Frazier used to beat Holmes in Sparring?” Yeah, when Holmes was fresh oit of the amateurs. Carl Williams used to beat Mike Tyson in sparring too. But we saw what happened when they fought.

Any version of Frazier would have two chances against a prime Larry Holmes… slim and none.

Holmes was bigger and faster with longer reach. He was more disciplined in the ring and more active than 1970’s Ali. His jab was harder, more versatile, more accurate and more punishing.

Holmes was hard to hit and did not lay on the ropes as Ali did and let opponents punch at him. He was only knocked down twice during his title reign of 7 years and got up to win both by KO. Frazier did not have one punch KO power but wore opponents down by swarming them. Holmes had a great uppercut which was Frazier’s kryptonite. Manehile Frazier was dropped 11x in his career… once by Mike Bruce.

I never saw Holmes get hit cleanly by a left hook. Frazier is not KOing him.

Frazier’s greatness is exaggerated by people who think 1971 Ali was that great (he wasn’t). Nor was the Ali who beat Frazier in the other two fights and should have lost all three decisions to Norton, one to Shavers and one to Jimmy Young.

Holmes was a different animal. He was better than anyone Frazier ever beat. Head and shoulders above. Out of all the fighters Frazier fought only prime Foreman was arguably competitive with prime Holmes and I don’t see Foreman beating Holmes either.

I see Larry winning the early rounds easy and putting 5 rounds or so in the bank and swelling up Frazier’s eye with that jab, outside fighting him and keeping him at distance.

Holmes hit just as hard as Frazier. He had the big right hand and one Frazier got too tired to bob and weave he would be an easy target.
Holmes TKO somewhere between round 8 and round 12 in a fight where Holmes maybe loses 3 rounds the whole fight.

 

Have to interject on the 11 knockdowns, 8 were from George and 2 were from Bonavena and he got up each time he was knocked down and won all of them aside from the fights with Foreman.

 

Young pro I believe.

 

Be serious please. Ali hit harder than Holmes. He was also faster and physically stronger. Larry Holmes had a good chin, Ali had one of the greatest chins in history. Ali was just a more gifted athlete. Larry Holmes got the most out of what he had.
This is a terrible fight for Larry if we're comparing them at their peaks. He is going to probably win a couple of rounds every while Joe is warming up. Holmes is going to be hard-pressed to back Frazier up at all. He would never knock Joe out if they fought 30 times.
The pressure as well as the pace that Frazier would set would take its toll on Larry. By round 6 or 7 Holmes will feel the effect of those body punches that he would certainly absorb. Holmes will become more stationary and that is when the real pain begins.
Frazier could stop Holmes late or win a clear Decision.

Larry Holmes is the greater fighter and had the longer (not better),title reign. Joe Frazier from the late 60s up through 1971 needs to be left alone.

 

Exactly, according to his logic if Frazier had stayed down after Foreman knocked him down the first time. That would mean he his chin was better?

 

I do not agree, but you make a good case!

Although Ali's jab was more versatile, he threw it many ways, & I do not see Holmes being more accurate.
I do not believe Holmes was better than FOTC Ali, but saying he was "head & shoulders" above that Ali is just showing mucho bias! That is not a tenable position.
The fights you say Ali should have lost are debatable, but none of those versions were likely as good as FOTC Ali.
Although admittedly it was at least arguable with Norton...
And you can say Holmes should have lost against Witherspoon-when he was just past prime-almost lost to Norton, & I think Williams clearly deserved the decision.

Frazier has the stylistic advantage, & I do not think Holmes can keep him off.
If Frazier was able to walk through all of Ali's punches especially in the first & third fights-& recall Ali landed more than Frazier in FOTC, & in Manilla they set a RECORD for HW punches landed, more by Ali...

I believe each time more than Holmes ever landed in a fight...
With Ali & Holmes having similar power...
Frazier is getting to Holmes.
He would eat plenty of jabs but it would not keep Frazier at bay for most of the fight.
Unless a guy has extraordinary power-& Frazier was not as good or fast nor could land coming in...

Frazier is gonna land mucho hooks & body shots.
They will take a large toll over the course of a fight.

 

Yawn… another Ali fanboy.

Ali post prison would lay on the ropes and let opponents punch themselves out and then would knock them out late. Most were fighters who weren’t thought to be near his level. He built his mystique on Liston and Foreman. The Foreman win was significant but considering Foreman lost shortly after to Jimmy Young and survived a close call from Ron Lyle… well ‘nuff said.

No way Holmes stops Frazier? Even though Holmes was the record holder for consecutive KOs while defending the title?

Frazier was a tough guy, but he never fought the likes of Holmes including the 1970s Ali and Foreman. Peak Holmes was better than both. Most boxing experts agree Holmes hit harder than Ali. And Holmes would work from bell to bell and had one of the highest punches landed percentages of any fighter.

Frazier would never get warmed up against peak Holmes. Holmes wouldn’t be sitting on the ropes letting Frazier punch his body to wear him out. Holmes would be moving and jabbing and countering and Frazier would never get set.

name one fighter who ever had any success hitting Holmes with left hooks?

My feeling on Frazier was that if he had fought the other 1970s heavies in the division he’d have had several more losses. No Norton on his record… no Shavers on his record… no Lyle.

I think it’s comical that anyone would pick a middle of the pack Heavyweight champ whose claim to fame was a close win over an Ali who had been out of boxing for 3 years over a champion who was head and shoulders over anyone in the division for 7 years.

Foreman KOs him like a punch dummy knocking him down 8 times in 2 fights that aren’t even competitive and “no way Holmes KO’s him if they fought 30 times?”
GTFO Lmao.

 

Have you really watched the Holmes Witherspoon fight and counted the rounds?

Holmes was winning almost every round and Witherspoon hurt him with a good right hand. Witherspoon won 3 maybe 4 rounds the whole fight. While Ali used to get judge generosity giving him many rounds he in fact did not win, Holmes was so much better than most of his opponents they would do the reverse and and give the opponent “comparison rounds” where the opponent wouldn't lose them by that much and they would still give them to the opponent because by comparison they were closer.

Holmes eye swelled up from a thumb so the image of him with a swollen eye affected the scoring. If you watch the fight again and count the punches landed cleanly, Holmes wins that fight as the one judge scored it 118-111.

Most boxing experts agree that Holmes had the more versatile jab than Ali.
Ali was superior with a sneaky lead right. Holmes rarely three the lead right. He had better fundamentals than Ali, and his resume is just as good.

Interestingly Ali never had a prime. He had two careers… the pre-prison career where he was much faster but hadn’t filled out and wasn’t as hard a hitter, and post-prison where he wasn’t nearly as fast but was more strategic and stronger.

His prime years would have been those three years most likely, but those years in the ring didn’t exist.

Ali is rated as high as he is because he was charismatic and a larger then life personality. He was a champion for people of color and was a cult hero.

How dare we suggest someone like Holmes who was clearly a superior technical fighter be better than a “legend”

And if the fight was close they always gave the late and crucial rounds to the “legend” in close fights based on 20 seconds pf dancing around at the end of anround he was being outworked.

 

Easily Frazier. He roughs Holmes up and catches him with a sweet left. Holmes wasn’t used of that kinds of competition and would massively struggle with the step up in class. Frazier TKO 10.

 

You confuse Holmes with the modest type, like Foreman. He's sort of the opposite. He'll tell you how he would have easily taken out Lewis, Fury, etc. How if his arm didn't get caught in that rope, he'd have KO'd Tyson with the uppercut he was trying to throw. How he could have beaten pre-exile Ali.

If Holmes gives anyone he fought a compliment, it was well earned.

 

Look how much better Larry was from a sparring partner to his prime….. Sorry I think Joe gets smoked by Holmes. That jab is better than any Jab Joe saw and I wouldn’t be surprised if he knocks Joe down also.

 

Who were the other knockdown against? Fraizer was shaken up a few times. Fraizer's resume is bear for puncher aside form Foreman. Bonavena might be the best he fought. There is no season to suspect Holmes can't do the same as his deliver method is superior to Bonavena's not to mention his vast reach and speed. Not a bad puncher either.

 

I'm enjoying the reasoned and well articulated arguments from both sides. I'm on the fence here as both Frazier and Holmes have their "fanboys" who proclaim their unequivocable greatness and blah, blah, blah, but both showed enough vulnerability to question their abilities against one another in my book.

Larry probably isn't "smoking" Frazier. He sure didn't "smoke" much lesser lights like Lucien Rodriquez and Trevor Berbick and he flat out lost to Witherspoon and Williams in his supposed prime. (And don't tell me the consensus was otherwise. The theater crowd at MSA in Indianapolis almost rioted when they announced Witherspoon lost a spit nod) He did obliterate a pressuring prime Leon Spinks but went life and death with a stalking Mike Weaver and I would have bet on Weaver in a 1981-82 rematch.

Frazier, however, outside of a rusty Ali in '71, never fought anyone of Holmes size with that kind of educated jab and footwork. And his chin is not where Larry's was. Ever. He isn't mowing down prime Holmes. Not. A. Chance.

I have a feeling this is a "down to the wire" kinda fight. My suspicion is that Larry's size and durability might be the nose that gets him to the tape first, but who knows? It would be a great fight. Good thread.