Muhammad Ali (74 version) vs Mike Tyson (88 Version) in Zaire 1974

The nearly two years ring rusty, 38 year old Holmes who lost to Michael Spinks a few years before that.

Beat me to it lol.

 

I agree with your response to someone else about Tyson & Frazier being very different.
However part of the result Tyson gleaned from his punches was the speed & deadly combinations.
Even when it was (at least mainly, may have been softened up before) was from his speed & shorter punches not being anticipated or guarded against effectively-or at all.
So Foreman would not get the effect that Tyson got say with Botha, where Tyson got somewhat more of a result than if his punch was anticipated, braced for, &/or rolled with.

I think Tyson himself would tell us that some hit harder than him shot for shot.
Among those he fought, at least Ruddock, Bonecrusher & Bruno could throw a punch with more sheer power.
Tua, (not too) old Foreman, 'roided up Morrison, Butterbean are among those contemporaries who I believe hit harder.

Although none were as good, nor could deliver as much effective force in a few punch combination.
I would take a say 10% less power punch (than a single shot artist) delivered more accurately with more similar punches in asveral seconds anyday as the better KO artist.

 

Mike has gone on record saying both Foreman and Frazier hit harder than him, though I imagine in the case of Frazier he meant the left hook alone.

And that latter can be disputed. Frazier probably had an overall better left hook, but as far as pure power...not sure on that at all. Mike had a great left.

 

I am saying that the Tale of the Tapes are often inaccurate.
That they say the same thing does not mean that they are correct.
You know that often promoters or Managers just supply those numbers?

Are you confident that Tyson & Holyfield-I mean the largest PED version-never had bigger than the 44" regular chest they were listed at?
Or only 16" biceps?
Even though when lean people will have smaller measurements than when overweight like the vast majority of Americans, that seems too low.
Here is the TOTP in [url]Lews vs. Tyson[/url]. Tyson was not so lean then, but his thigh & calf measurements were smaller than listed in earlier fights, & his regular chest & expanded only 42.5" & 44".
These are not plausible, either they were measured wrongly before the fight, or very possibly not at all.

You said "that isnt how they measure the fist".
I never described the method used.
But it is obviously just making a fist, measured taught but not tight across the widest part of the hand.

I am saying that nothung about the dimensions of Foreman's hands compared to Tyson makes it at all credible that Tyson even had as big a fist as Foreman. Never.
And in the hyperlink above, you will see Tyson's fist listed a bit lower, at 12".
He would not have lost fist size.
And Lewis was unlikely to be "only" a 12" fist.

Also so often the measurements are a round number.
Way more frequently than chance would dictate.
This is yet another indication that they are often inaccurate.

 

Much of what these guys says are probably out of polite modesty. Like Ali saying a prime Cleveland Williams would knock him out. Not saying these things are as ludicrous as that, but they're quite possibly not 100% his honest opinion. I think his left hook looked more powerful than Frazier's, but Frazier's hook was perhaps even more sudden and under the radar. It just seemed to whip out of nowhere at times, like a laser guided missile.

 

I think Frazier perfected the left hook on pretty much all levels. Of course, that doesn't take anything away Iron Mike's (or Foreman's, or Weaver's for that matter...to me the latter's hook was pretty much on a par with Tyson's, probably not as fast though but I mean as far as weight).

I don't think Mike punched as hard as Foreman or Shavers (or Wilder, Weaver) either. That said, he could at times punch as effectively as themr. Sometimes more.

 

Sounds like your trying to get out of the bet. Tyson usually has a booth at the Box Fan Expo in Vegas and im planning to go so ill make sure to bring a measuring tape with me. Then after we will settle this once and for all.

 

Whatever version of Ali you stick in there he gets knocked out or goes through the ringer. I’ll stand by this forever.

 

Holmes was not a Ali impersonator and the Holmes that fought Tyson was to say the least rusty. Throw a 1980 a Holmes in that fight and I bet there is a totally different outcome to it.

Tyson’s best chance to beat a 74 Ali would to train to go the distance- land combinations and use his defense effectively

 

No it does not souynd like I am trying to get out of any bet.
First off, I was obviously kidding about "betting my life".
Next, bringing a measuring tape & Tyson giving you permission to check his fist size would not tell you whether Foreman's was bigger. Unless you measured Foreman too-& did not show bias in how you did it such as pulling the tape...

Lastly, would you like me to start a thread about the banal subject of who had a bigger fist?
I predict that maybe nobody but you will even say Tyson's fist was as BIG as Foreman's.
Especially when I post photos of each.
With or without Foreman eating one of his grill-produced burgers.

 

Ofcourse I know your kidding, Me too. Lol! Lets just say whomever is right wins the bet. To be honest the legitimacy or illegimatcy of the TOTP never crossed my mind so now im just more curios then anything.
Sure make the thread but after I get the measurements from Tyson that way the pictures and or video can be in your description so I have a fair shake in the debate.

 

The Expo is in September

 

Respect for your opinion but I think 74 Ali was still clearly better than those impersonators - not least for his superior courage and will to win - attributes sorely missing from many of Tyson’s opponents. How would the impersonators fare against Foreman? I’m thinking not too well.

 

OK man, but you did not answer the question (& remember that you are under oath)...
You measuring Tyson does nothing to show the size of Foreman's fist.
But do you really think, looking at all the pictures of both of their hands, fuhgettibout reading descriptions where only George is described as having enormous hands...

That Tyson could possibly have fists as big as, let alone bigger, than Foreman?
Not only length, but in every conceivable dimension that relates to hand OR fist size...
Palm length. Palm width, hand thickness. any conceivable measurement of finger size...

Foreman for every moment that Tyson was alive has had somewhat larger hands than Tyson.

Tale of the tape is often inaccurate; I just gave you for several people that-including for Tyson-were almost certainly underestimated.
Tyson vs. Lewis had a chest measurement of only 42.5" & 44" expanded?
When that is smaller than listed when he was in his prime (also may be too low), & he is heavier?
No, the numbers can be all over the place.

 

Yes I believe that Tysons thickness of palm and knuckles were thicker than Formans therefore giving him 13in fist. I believe the tale of the tape to be correct in this instance the same way I believe Tysons wrist were 8in according to the tale of the tape. Tyson had many unique physical features which made him a specimen and believe his hands and wrist are two examples.
Now if your asking as a whole hand then no I don't think Tysons hands were bigger than Formans.
Asfar as the debate, Its only fair that if your going to upload a picture of Formans fist from a book (which the imagery can easily be enlarged for more effect) then I should be able to show an actual in real time measurement of Tysons fist size and wrist size. Therefore you have your source and I have my source and then let the debate begin for your future thread.
And who knows maybe Foreman will be there too and if so Ill get his measurements too.
September 17th is the expo so make your thread after though to be fair.