Gene Tunney's decision to fight Heeney instead of Sharkey in finale

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Jul 14, 2022.


  1. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    LMAO.

    Sorry people aren't as willing as you to blindly believe your narrative.

    Think what you like of me, I really don't care
     
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  2. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    This discussion has run its course. The original question was about “Gene Tunneys decision to fight Heeney instead of Sharkey in the finale.” Its been well established that it wasnt Tunneys decision at all. That point has now been twisted into the idea that there was this constellation of challengers that Tunney ducked in 1928 which at best is based on monday morning quarterbacking and at worst has absolutely no basis in reality. Whats the point in carrying on with this fantasy? If someone isnt even going to adhere to reality or basic facts then debate is a useless endeavor.
     
  3. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In none of them it was claimed that Godfrey threw these fights.
     
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  4. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This is not how grown adult discuss. Step back and look at what you're doing. I've never seen @BitPlayerVesti being called that way by anyone here and he never showed any signs of such behavior. You act like a child being angry at everyone who disagree with you.
     
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  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    24 years old, been here since 2019? Young stud, here's my advice for you because I have been here since I was 18 years old. I am 35 now. I am a fan, I'm no historian. Step back for a minute and read. Read everything you can find. Men who post here who get paid to do this for a living, buy their books and read. Learn everything you can, form opinions later. Sign up for lots of newspapers subscriptions of old articles you can find. Go to your local library. I joined the IBRO, that was a wealth of information. I would highly recommend joining. $ is worth it. Boxing Scene Forum has some great information, scan through old threads. Box rec Forum has some great stuff in old archives. Cyberboxinzone forum was the best, but got shut down. I used to be a member at this private forum run by historians which only lasted a couple years. I barely even posted, just read their stuff. Lot's of good stuff out there. Ultimately this is a great forum.
     
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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  7. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    A few last words on the Black Heavyweights of the 1920s


    Jack Sharkey told the Evening Star in 1927

    "With no disrespect to any of the big boys, when John Buckley and I were asked who we thought was the most dangerous heavyweight with Tunney and Dempsey out of the argument, we both answered George Godfrey. That particular Negro Heavyweight has developed one of the hardest left hooks to the body anyone can show. Believe me, he drove plenty of them to my body when we fought. Still I was able to stay right with him and come to him so strong at the finish I captured the decision. I know Dempsey can hit, and I expect to be nailed plenty, but I don't think he will hit me any harder than big george did, or with better results. Say I was smacked so hard in the Godfrey row, that i had bumps on my head like eggs."

    In his autobiography, Gains speaks both for himself and for other talented Black heavyweights when he writes: “I dreamed of becoming the heavyweight champion of the world. But, for me, it was always the impossible dream, the unreachable star. The politics of the day were against it. The bar was up.”


    "He was a legendary fighter, a most fearsome man, With the possible exception of (Jack) Dempsey, he was the best and most destructive heavyweight in the world. He was so powerful that he didn't just beat men, he ruined them. It came to the point where no white man would fight him, unless the handcuffs were on."- Larry Gains



    "The fight between Godfrey and Carnera was fixed. There is no way Carnera's handlers would allow him to enter a ring against a conditioned Godfrey. Upon viewing Godfrey and his behavior, I believe Godfrey pulled his punches, clinched too often, and was deliberate in fouling."- Nat Fleischer, Interview with Ring Magazine


    Johnston and Cogswell, authors of “Uncrowned Champions”, wrote, “Godfrey went to the body for most of the fight, and he and Primo put on a pleasing fight. But George did not go for Primo’s chin with anything hard and made just enough action to make it look good. In the fifth round, he hit Carnera with a left hook that landed in the groin and lost the fight on a foul.”

    “There is not the slightest doubt that Carnera’s fight with Godfrey was fixed for the former to win,” wrote Fleischer. “The Italian’s foxy handlers would not have spoiled their racket by permitting him to tackle Godfrey otherwise. They knew what Godfrey could do to their mammoth charge, if allowed to fight in his real form.

    “Knowing what instructions he had to carry out, Godfrey still with his heavy punches weakened Carnera and on several occasions it looked as though the huge Italian must go down. When that happened, Godfrey eased up and clinched to aid Primo. But at the half-way mark George was so far ahead on points, it seemed impossible that he could lose.

    “There was but one way for George to execute his orders, by earning disqualification
    . So he began hitting low. He was warned by referee Tom Reilly to keep up his punches, but in the fifth round Godfrey deliberately struck his opponent below the belt. Carnera dropped as if he had been shot. The bout was stopped and Primo declared winner on a foul, thus saving the day for the mob that controlled him.”


    Sports writer Bill Corum, who was one of the first to talk to Godfrey in the dressing room, wrote in his book OFF AND RUNNING, “I took quick advantage of the situation. ‘George,’ I said, ‘I want you to tell me just one thing and I want you to tell me the truth. Can this fellow Carnera fight?’”

    “Mr. Corum,” he replied promptly and earnestly, “the man can’t hurt you. He’s big as a house an’ he kin box a little, but he can’t punch, he can’t punch.”


    “At this juncture, Godfrey’s manager, Jim ‘The Baron’ Dougherty, rushed in and dragged the sweating fighter off into a corner where they conferred briefly, wrote Corum. “ By the time the rest of the sports scribes had got inside, Godfrey was rolling his eyes and saying, “Most terrible man I ever did see; man can knock your head right off; man’s dangerous, going to be champion.

    “I held to the belief that Godfrey, alone and free to speak, had told me the truth.”



    In the February, 1948 issue of Sport magazine, Jack Sher wrote that Godfrey

    "Godfrey had a terrible time losing to Primo. It was almost impossible for this boy to fight badly enough for the huge Italian even to hit him! He finally solved the dilemma by fouling Primo in the fifth round.

    "After the fight, several suspicious reporters came into Godfrey's dressing room and began to ask how hard Primo could hit. 'Hit?' the large Negro grinned, 'That fellow couldn't hurt my baby sister.' The reporters began to laugh and then into the room walked several of the gentlefolk" — mobsters — "who were handling Carnera. Godfrey's face changed. 'That white boy sure has some punch,' Big George said quickly. 'I thought the house had fallen in on me a couple times there.'"








    THE BARON OF LEIPERVILLE
    The Life and Times of James F. Dougherty


    Chapter 6

    The Black Shadow of Leiperville


    “Back in New York, Johnson looked up his friend, Jimmy Dougherty, known in sportdom by the sobriquet of ‘The Baron of Leiperville,’ and advised him to take hold of Godfrey.”

    “I’m making you a present of the next world heavyweight titleholder,” said Jack.

    “Dougherty naturally had respect for Johnson’s judgment in such matters and at once took Godfrey under his managerial wing,” wrote Fleischer. “

    Fleischer, who had just published his first issue of Ring Magazine in 1922, was also aware of stories concerning who really managed Godfrey.

    In “Black Dynamite, Volume V”, Fleischer wrote, “Dougherty was Godfrey’s manager by record, but about this time it was rumored that Kearns bought Godfrey’s contract for $1,000, with the intention of using him as a sort of buffer between Dempsey and Wills. Jack Kearns, manager of champion Jack Dempsey, was being annoyed considerably just then by the persistent challenges hurled at the Manassa Mauler by Harry Wills. The idea was that Kearns would tell Wills to go whip Godfrey first, whenever the Black Panther got too busy on Dempsey’s trail. Godfrey was then without any experience worth speaking of, yet there were many experts who thought he would prove too strong for Wills in battle.

    “While Kearns used Godfrey as a sparring partner for Dempsey, he always denied that he managed Godfrey. However, that may have been, certain it is that the champion’s pilot did on several occasions inform Wills that the latter must defeat Godfrey before Harry could get a shot at the heavyweight title.”
     
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  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    THE BARON OF LEIPERVILLE
    The Life and Times of James F. Dougherty



    Godfrey took part in a box-off to see if he was good enough to fight on a Madison Square Garden program.

    In 1923, Leo P. Flynn, the matchmaker for Madison Square Garden, arranged a box-off at Billy Grupp’s Gym in the black section of Harlem,” wrote Nat Fleischer. “The bouts were to decide if any of the contestants were worthy to fight on the Garden program.

    “George was one of those contestants, and in his first bout, he knocked out Clem Johnson, a promising heavyweight, in two rounds. George then took on the Canadian heavyweight, Jack Renault. They sparred four rounds, at the close of which Renault had taken such a battering that he was practically ‘out on his feet.’”

    It was after this performance that Flynn, who was also Renault’s manager, decided to put Godfrey in a main event at Madison Square Garden. A Winnipeg syndicate had announced before the fight a proposal to match the winner of this fight with Harry Wills.

    The fight turned out to be a real learning experience for Godfrey. As a result, he was knocked out in the eleventh round. Nevertheless, the bout was surrounded by controversy because Big George never really threw a single hard punch the entire fight.

    In “Black Dynamite Volume V”, Fleischer wrote, “Godfrey, aware of how he had handled Renault in the gym, felt confident of victory. However, before the fight, Flynn told Godfrey that he had received a warning tip that if Godfrey whipped his white opponent, the Ku Klux Klan would have him kidnapped and hanged. The consequence of Flynn’s fine strategy was that Godfrey, who firmly believed the horrible tale, was so scared when the hostilities began, that he never threw a single hard wallop through the entire contest, which ended with Renault scoring a knockout in the eleventh round.”

    On September 8, 1924, Godfrey fought Jack Renault in a rematch before a large crowd in Philadelphia at Shibe Park.

    “In the first half of the contest, Godfrey was clearly superior to the Canadian,’ wrote Nat Fleischer. “Fearing lest making too good a showing would scare off other prospective opponents, he eased up and coasted in the latter rounds. Many spectators thought he was entitled to the decision. That he failed to get it was due to his own poor judgment.”


    In their third fight, Godfrey finally beat Canada’s Jack Renault in San Francisco.

    Renault never had a chance with Big George,” said Dougherty. “The only time the Canadian tried to stand up and fight was in the fourth round, and he hit the floor twice before the welcome sound of the gong. The rest of the time, he spent principally in trying to keep Godfrey from knocking his head off.”



    “The color line was the chief obstacle in Godfrey’s path, as in the case of Wills,” wrote Nat Fleischer. “The race issue was formerly much evidence where pro boxing was concerned. Also, those Negro fighters often had to take what they could get in the way of matches and frequently ‘fight to order,’ and carry opponents whom they could have defeated.

    “Godfrey, an easy-going, good-natured chap, fought ‘under wraps’ many times. Not being of a worrying disposition, he seldom protested against such conditions, but did as commanded, even though he knew his reputation was bound to suffer in consequence of obeying.”

    “The Baron and I had to tell George at times to carry opponents or we would not be able to get him fights,” recalled Howard. “We made concessions in order for George to meet high rated fighters including carry opponents, and fouling out.”



    Nat Fleischer, the editor of Ring Magazine, always felt that Godfrey was the leader in the field of heavyweights after Tunney vacated the title.

    “Leaving the race question out of my discussion, for I don’t believe it should enter, Godfrey is the outstanding heavyweight now before the public,” wrote Fleischer. “Were he permitted to fight as he can, were the color line not drawn, the next world’s heavyweight champion would be George Godfrey.

    “Were Godfrey to obtain the recognition he deserves, he, and not Schmeling, would now be in line for a crack at Jack Sharkey to determine Tunney’s successor.”
     
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  9. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    @SuzieQ49 are you seriously incapable of seeing why a fighter might talk up a previous opponent they had already beat, in comparison with someone they were going to fight?
     
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  10. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "so size is your threshhold"

    No. In his original post Suzie posted:

    "Heeney was 5' 10, he didn't possess any trump card. He couldn't hit hard, wasn't fast, wasn't skilled. Just a very average come forward fighter with no significant ability giving up a lot of height and reach to Gene."

    Was he viewed differently back in 1928? I don't think so. According to the 1976 The Ring Boxing Encyclopedia and Record Book, Tunney was a 15-1 favorite. Dempsey was only 7-1 over Miske and 4-1 over Brennan. Louis was only 10-1 over Roper. Louis only 12-1 over Paycheck. You have to be considered a pretty weak contender for even a great champion to get 15-1 odds.

    I am not saying Tunney had to fight someone else. Or even should have. The smart move was fighting Heeney. The best money for the least risk.

    And with Tex Rickard all in for Heeney, so much the better. It does appear his shrewd promotional skills abruptly deserted him, and he would in the event take a bath. He could sell Carpentier as a challenger but Heeney proved a bridge too far.

    I admit I am looking at it from the 21st century, but it is for me a very hard sell that Sharkey or Godfrey, or Uzcudun or Risko, would have gone into a fight with Tunney on the short end of 15-1 odds.
     
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  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Im well aware did you read above? You got some evidence on Godfrey participating in fixed fights
     
  12. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    These are Nat Fleischer stories from way past Godfrey retirement. Again, don't you think that taking one man's opinions over contemporary sources isn't the best idea?

    You didn't answer why Godfrey had just as underwhelming record against other black fighters.

    Nobody doubts that Godfrey could hit hard, but it's not the end of the world. Sharkey still beat him cleanly.
     
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  13. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    Good Stuff Suzie!
     
  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Ok

    Well you've not done anything to establish that Godfrey was actually in lots of fixes, so unless you actually provide good evidence from . There is more of a case for the Carena fight than the Risko or Sharkey fights. No date either. How close this was discussed to the event matters a lot.

    Ok, you've done nothing to establish these guys as authorities, and provided no primary evidence to back up their claims. There's not any sort of high level of fact checking, or requirement of expertese, required just to get a book published.

    The story they are presenting is garbage. Godfrey went to the body a lot. Like I refered to earlier some believed Godfrey's heavy body punches on Risko hurting his later preformances, so him throwing a lot to the body against a taller opponent is perectly to be expected. You can also see him throwing the overhand right in the film though. So the fact what they are saying doesn't even seem to fit the evidence we have from various fight reports from the time, mean I think this should be completely dismissed

    Well you've done a good job of establishing Nat Fleichers' opinion. One mans' opinion doesn't carry that much weight. W.W Naughton wrote at length that Jeffries Fitzsimmons II was fixed, do we have to just believe that now too? The story doesn't make a whole lot of sense, why one earth would someone throwing a fight risk throwing heavy punches that weaken their opponent?

    As for Godfrey clinching, that's just how he fought, lots of clinching and infighting.

    What he is saying here doesn't fit at all with the next day reports or what we have on film. It claims that Godfrey had to foul out because Carnera was so bad that even without trying, Carnera couldn't win otherwise, yet both the reports and the film shows Carnera doing perfectly well. I don't know when this was written.

    And since you keep bringing up the fighter's reputations, why don't we also consider that Godfrey also fouled out with low blows in fights against black opponents, both Larry Gains and Al Walker?

    Again this doesn't match at all what we have on film, or in the papers.
     
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  15. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I think it's pretty clear Nat is not reliable, considering his claims on the Carnera fight just don't match the evidence at all.

    Godfrey clearly had a tendancy to do worse in the later parts of fights, including against Risko, so I see no reason not to suspect that's what occured in the 1924 fight.
     
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