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I thinks it's 50/50. We have this thing called weight classes because size matters. Then again, Oleksandr Usyk is either the #1 or #2 heavy in the world, so...

Every time someone says "Rocky Marciano never fought a modern heavy," I point out that Larry Holmes never fought anyone who can throw 100 punches in the 15th round of a fight. Size matters, but not THAT much.

 

Oh wow! That is certainly the correct question. But I am not at all sure I have the correct answer to it. For now, I will go with the last sentence of catchwtboxing's post above: "Size matters, but not THAT much." With all things considered, that about sums it up for me at this point.

 

Size matters significantly, but when you get to the level of HW/SHW, it means less than if you ha commensurate discrepancies in height, length, weight & muscle compared to lighter divisions.

The numbers you present for a classic HW vs. later 20th century vs. what we know from roughly the last 30 years are enough that it is implausible that you can get the elite from the former competitive with the top SHWs.
But it is more plausible you can have competition between the 2 closest categories.

If you had similar differences in height & weight in lower weight categories, you would be highly unlikely to get similar competitiveness between these sizes, effectively different divisions.

This is in part because the

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difference in weight or lean body mass is lesser as you get smaller.
However even if you say took a WW vs. a MW-only 13 lbs. of variation for max. weight, & with rehydration allowed for all still essentially that number-you would not figure a fight between them would be fair.
That is because there are diminishing (although still some) returns above a certain size.

Note what you did though: the distinction between the first 2 is basically only height & length-6'3" & 210 lbs. lean is about the same actual muscle per square inch as 6' 190.

When you get to what is considered a SHW they they tend to carry more bulk-often even when lean.
If not overdone, this tends to an an advantage.

When you combine these things with top fitness & athletic training-especially when they have the advantage of illegal PEDs-that is tough to overcome.

A Wilder has been an outlier in terms of weight for his height, but had enough power, speed & athleticism to compensate for having no legs.

A Usyk can compete & possibly beat most or all SHW sized guys.
But he likely could not if he was limited to exactly 210 lbs. at 6'3"-or it would be somewhat harder.
He weighed 221.5 vs. Joshua.

So size absolutely matters, especially when you consider how at the highest level of a sport any advantage is significant.

 

I'll begin by saying that's a great post.

I think any man that's 6'5 ish and 250 lb ish can hurt about anybody. The same can't be said in reverse to them. Meaning the bigger guy should be able to impose his size and power on the smaller man much easier or at least with greater consistency than the smaller man hurting the bigger guy.

I'll also state that there have always been standouts, and our heroes are the examples of that. These guys stood out among their peers.

I think Charles or Spinks for example would have a much better chance against Lewis or Fury than the average or just "good" LHW, because they're exemplary among their contemporaries.

I think a disadvantage of 50 lbs or so and 6" in height is a bridge too far most of the time at this point. There is room for exceptions for sure.

There is a reason we have weight classes, and size definitely makes a difference. That's just physiology and physics.

I can easily toy with my 14 year old who boxes but is 6" shorter and 70lbs lighter... I also have personally had my butt kicked by amateur lightweights in the gym who are the same size as my son...

It isn't only about size, as other factors are in play, but in general, and when there is equal or similar skills between them or the smaller man is more skilled, the advantages become less significant.

 

I don't think Deontay Wilder fits the cliche of modern heavyweights.
It fits in height, but it doesn't fit in weight. He fought under 220 lbs for most of his career.

In his first fight with Tyson Fury, he weighed only 212.5 lbs.

Only in the last two fights of his career he "bounced" to 231 lbs and 238 lbs respectively (I guess he thought he was better that way).
Lennox Lewis weighed 256.5 lbs in the last fight of his career (TKO6); far more than Deontay Wilder ever did.

 

we cannot say much of modern heavyweight until they proof themself.

 

Fury might actual be #1 today
& He has no opponent wins of really valuable. Only Wilder.
few fight in 14 year. no resume

he might be ATG if win with Usyk. but still not much resume

 

I believe the decay of boxing as a sport (popularity-wise, hence when it comes to fresh, hungry wolves as well) enables the superheavyweight to dominate the division and paint less than accurate image of their h2h competence. The more average the boxers, and let's be honest, heavyweight division rarely have been more **** poor than it was recently, the easier it is for size to dominate, since it is the more naturally exploited and straightforward advantage.

12 rounds era and modern nutrition would also help to adjust the old stars immensely. They could either gain more pounds without worrying about championship rounds conditioning (with modern juices they would likely gain some free weight without worrying about cardiovascular efficiency), or dish out daunting amount of punches per round.

Promotion and changes in refereeing is another enabling factor for the big boys: superfights are rarer and boxers fight less in general, making a DQ loss nearly impossible. Even point deduction for holding seems to be rare. All that combined with the death of true Duran-esque infighting favors outside fighters who are often the taller, rangy guys.

 

Physically they are better. And they rely more on their physicality than before.

Head to head physical attributes are more important than before.

The days where the guy who landed more blows won..that’s changed.

Those days of being the better boxer meant more than just size. That’s not there so much.

Ring craft itself was more often the deciding factor.

I think decade by decade there has always been more of a case of the champion being what he had to be to win at that time.

you take a guy out of his own era and he nearly always has to be somebody else.

so pitching “as is” is not so straight forward.

I do agree that until 1970s it is easier to pitch champs “as is” in a more fair way. After 1970 it’s less fair. After 2000 it gets silly. Too much that couldn’t exist before.

No. not in boxing technique or in a way where a result depends on outright talent and naturally developed men.

There were few watershed moments where things changed. I think somebody once listed the weights of HW champions and noticed a significant unexplained change around 1970s. Earlier than this, I think a big change was the size of gloves getting bigger.

I think Marciano v Charles was the last HW championship bout fought with 6oz gloves. This might have made it harder to score a knockout in championship fights and could coincide with a trend to get bigger?

But for me the biggest moment was the Spinks experiment. Where a fighter could fight his whole career at one division then gain 30lb in three months and win another title.

That changed everything. Because now tall gangly guys with thin arms and long necks could achieve more functional weight. The 6’5” heavyweight was born round about this time.

Before this, being the bigger guy, largely only counted until you met a world class fighter. Who beat him with ring craft.

 

It used to be that to be a dominant champion heavyweight boxer the guy had to first be a tremendous athlete.

a tremendous athlete who could fight.

And the best athletes for many years, most of the time, got only so big.

You always had giant boxers who could fight. But in the athlete department, they were more limited. They got tired out. They were easier to hit. Got hit more times with smaller gloves. It got harder for them to catch up to a guy hitting him so many more times.

modern advances changed all of this. Allowing Giants to become better athletes. Their size wouldn’t get the better of them so much against smaller athletes who could fight.

It wasn’t that athletes got bigger.

it was that bigger men could finally become better athletes.

whilst the modern advances helped other sized athletes too, the sheer size of an even bigger athlete could now take its toll in a way it never could before.

 

A tough question. I would say the game changed in the early 1990's to super heavyweights loosely defend as 6'3"+ 78" reach + 220 pounds plus. Since then the #1 spot has almost overwhelming been defined by a super heavy weights, save the rare decisions against and KO loss. Think about it. They days of Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, and Rocky Marciano are great to talk about but there hasn't been a man like that capable of beating modern skilled giants in 30+ years. That isn't a fluke. They were too small to beat a modern skilled champion save the proverbial puncher's chance and not wining any decisions.

Instead of saying better, I say modern heavyweights will likely beat the heavyweight champions 60 years ago or more. I know some will say but Ali. Ali was a big man with super heavyweight dimensions. I stood next to his wax museum which takes measurements for real life people for their wax replicas and let me tell you he's about 6'3" tall, long armed, and had thick legs. Of course no one was faster. If he was fighting today in shape he'd be ten pounds heavier.

That's my take.

 

IMO the story of the super heavyweights (the super heavyweight division has long existed in amateur boxing) will justify the existence of the bridgerweight division (or the division into heavyweight and super heavyweight divisions). So again IMO the question should be asked, or even a poll: "Does professional boxing need two categories above cruiserweights?"

 

I would say Usyk is a big man. 6'3" and 78 " reach currently fighting at a trim 220 pounds. He is very skilled and would be a monster sized heavyweight in Marcinao's day. His stamina for 12 rounds is excellent too. Yes, his movement and punch out put is high for 12 rounds. He hasn't gone 15 rounds, but that is not allowed today, and only a fool would say he could not do it.