Ali's "Gift Decisions" Revisited

Stories indicate Muhammad trained and sparred during exile, he carried his equipment around in his car. He wasn’t as rusty as he wants folks to believe, you could argue Quarry and Bonavena were the most dangerous guys he’d faced besides Liston and it’s no wonder he didn’t look “prime” if he’d retired n 67 we’d be talking about a really weak champion.

 

Considering that Muhammad had only seen three rounds of action in three and a half years,the Bonavena fight deserves to be rated as one of Ali's most underrated performances.

 

That was his most God awful to view performance it was also against Bonavena…. People throw “3 rounds in so and so years” a lot for fighters. But the man knew how to prepare for a 15 rounder and he was known to spar very frequently, often at a hard pace. It’s not really some great feat, no disrespect that’s just my opinion on the matter.

 

I see it this way too.

 

The draft dodger is one of the most overrated fighters of all time. Was he good- yes. Did we not see his best do to him making poor decisions- yes. But he can get beat. Any version of him. And let’s not forget who really ran him.

 

OK so using this logic, rust doesn't exist correct?

Anyways as numerous sources confirm, Ali didn't do much sparring nor training for the bout at all.

You already said this and my reply was 45 minutes don't make up for three years of inaction. We're going around in circles here.

1. If those three total rounds were the only action he'd seen in three years he may have showed some chinks in the amour.

2. The situations are not even remotely similar. One of them was fighting an ATG in his prime, the other was fighting..... Frank Bruno.

3. Ali dominated Quarry in his first fight back and stopped him in 6 minutes. Are you going to argue he wasn't rusty for that bout merely because of his performance?

Then you simply don't understand the dynamics of sports.

Ali was still an excellent fighter that night no doubt and head and shoulders better than anyone else in the division at that time but that doesn't mean he wasn't suffering from ring rust. 46 minutes of actual fighting (less time than a typical workout) isn't going to change that.

If you would like to find some evidence, be my guest. The facts are though, this was the best he ever looked imo while you obviously can't say the same about Ali.

Actually we just did a thread scoring this very fight last year and the result when adding all the cards was.... a draw.

Source: https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...mad-ali-i-fotc-50th-anniversary.664266/page-6

Well Mercante was the one closest to the action so I'll take his word over anyone else's.

What ISN'T a minority opinion is that had Ali won just two more rounds, he would've won the fight.

 

And how bout all the Americans who served in that era who were rewarded nothing! Not to mention the ones who gave the ultimate sacrifice. There life.

 

Interesting that when examining just how close the FOTC was, many sign off saying “but I don’t want to begrudge Joe his win”.

Please do NOT misread me - I totally get and respect not wanting to begrudge Joe his win. The man put his heart and soul into that fight - his one and only win against Ali over 3 fights. Important context.

Perhaps my interpretations are wrong but it tells me that maybe there’s quite a few who feel that a draw or even a win for Ali in the FOTC is very arguable - but due to the closeness of the fight and out of respect for Joe they perhaps don’t push the argument as much they might do if other players were involved.

Respect to all sides but in my mind, Ali was def. still rusty - no amount of sparring, however much it was, simulates the conditioning and sharpness gained from real fights - and Ali was devoid of two crucial, irretrievable, prime assets that would’ve made all the difference - his peak mobility and stamina, attributes that were also somewhat inextricably entwined.

The Leonard (vs Hagler) and Tyson (vs Bruno) don’t hold for mine. For one, the opposition didn’t present as ATGs or ATGs at their absolute peak - as FOTC Frazier was.

Also, Mike was a puncher, and beat Bruno based primarily on the longer held attribute of power (see Old George) - it didn’t speak for retention of his all round game - not least for the fact of the limited duration of his rematch against Frank.

 

Because for anyone who hasn't seen much ring action in years, you could always just argue they're not rusty because they've been sparring in the interim.

It was. But as he'd shown throughout his career, it was hardly an exception.

That's one way of putting it and a disingenuous one at that. The facts are he had 46 minutes of actual ring activity in a three year period. That time is so insignificant it doesn't matter who he beat. He could've beaten God himself and it still wouldn't change the fact that he was undeniably rusty.

I think you missed my point by quite some margin.

Well you were arguing Tyson wasn't rusty because of his performance against Bruno. If he was rusty, it wouldn't have necessarily showed as Ali was undeniably rusty against Quarry but it didn't show in his performance.

Well he wasn't "back in action for a year". He'd returned just FOUR months prior.

Elite heavyweights don't typically have a three year layoff, get out of shape in the interim, fight 46 minutes, and perform as if they never left 4 months after their return.

No problem.