How is Charley Burley rated?

It’s being stated as fact that Burley was terrible at the box office. Maybe that’s true … but can someone produce a list of cards he headlined that tanked, what the house/gate was and how much was lost by promoters in each of these?

It would be nice to see a blanket statement like that backed up with facts.

 

I loved Eddie Futch. I met him myself. I don't dismiss everything he said. I don't know why you'd say that.

I don't have anything against Futch or Charley Burley.

EVERY era has well-respected contenders (many of whom beat Hall of Famers) who never won a title. Burley's era you brought up was 70+ freaking years ago.

Saying "I pick So-and-so because guys 70 years ago said they respected him" doesn't mean any more than guys 50 years ago, or 30 years ago or 10 years ago or 100 years ago saying they thought someone among their peers was the best who never won a title.

EVERY era has guys who were supremely talented and failed to win a title, for whatever reason.

Charley Burley looks like a really good fighter.

Is he the best who never won a title? I highly doubt it. It's not even like he only lost to people who were former or future champs. (Others can claim that, even mopes like Cooney.)

We can respect Burley and other contenders like him without going to extemes over those guys.

I only responded initially because someone said he was top 25 all-time. Enough of that. Please.

 

What Futch really said is below. I'm in no way aware of him ever saying he was the best and I've got a lot of material and a reasonable memory. Futch also made similar comments after finishing with Bowe in past tense - he could have been the best heavyweight i trained etc. Bowe didn't make it to where Futch said he had the potential too and that was relayed later on, by Futch. I seem to remember Futch talking about dedication and the like which is sure no secret.

NEW YORK — The morning after Riddick Bowe's exhilarating victory over then-heavyweight champ Evander Holyfield in Las Vegas last November, Bowe's trainer, Eddie Futch, dissected the fight and suggested the new champion had much room for improvement.

"I saw a lot of things to work on, to change and improve," said Futch, 82, who previously had helped guide Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks to heavyweight crowns.


"Riddick can make better use of his jab, shorten his right hand and take better advantage of his size and strength."

According to Futch, Bowe is just "scratching the surface" of his ring potential.


"They say you never reach potential, but I'm reaching for it," said Futch. "I believe Riddick, at 25, is still three years from his prime. With his natural tools, he could be the best heavyweight I've ever had."

Also -

"Holmes was a great boxer and Frazier a great fighter," Futch said. "But now I've got a young champion who can be great in both those departments. His mobility is second only to [Muhammad] Ali, but Ali learned to use his movement through the experience Riddick is still getting."

 

I never said "I don't believe Eddie Futch." You claimed Klompton was calling them LIARS. I said they were inconsistent. Guys who are practically "Centurians" tend to be inconsistent.

When Futch said Riddick Bowe is the best heavyweight he ever trained, then another time he listed other heavyweights above Bowe and didn't include him among the best he'd ever trained, and then in another interview he left out Hall of Famers he trained and said Maurice Blocker was among the 10 best fighters he trained ... that's inconsistent.

That's all I said. My first instinct isn't to "ignore" people with other opinions. I always listen. I just don't always agree.

Then again, I don't base my opinions of fighters on what other people say. I like to see for myself.

That's why I don't feel the need to say things like "Arcel, Futch and Moore are three of the four greatest minds of their era." We all know they were knowledgeable. Do have to pretend only "one" other person may have possibly known more than they did to justify going along with them?

Arcel, as you said "one of four greatest minds" of the era, said Dempsey would beat Ali. Do you take that as fact, too? If I don't accept that, am I calling Arcel a LIAR? No. I just don't agree.

He can have his opinion. But I base my opinions on what I see.

For instance, I'm not saying Sugar Ray Robinson is a liar when he said Charley Burley punched like a heavyweight.

But watch that film of Charley Burley (on the fist page of the thread) and tell me if you think he punches like a heavyweight? Honestly? He only stopped half his opponents who were mainly welterweights and middleweights.

What other middleweight in history who only knocked out half the welters and middleweights he fought would you classify as "hitting like a heavyweight?"

I don't even think Thomas Hearns hit like a heavyweight. But he hit freaking hard until he got up there around light heavy.

I feel like some of these quotes were taking by guys who were just sitting around shooting the **** ... and fans these days take them as absolute fact.

If anyone says anything that isn't absolutely GLOWING about Charley Burley these days ... people pounce.

But everyone pouncing seems to post the same couple quotes and same video clip ... and I've seen the same clips and the same quotes ... and I don't agree.

All the hyperbole that he "punches like a heavyweight" and "three of the four top minds of their era agree" doesn't change what I can see with my own eyes.

And fans back then didn't see all that much either. There weren't scores of letters to the boxing mags back then demanding Burley get a title shot. Nobody was raising the roof he wasn't getting his due.

With that, I'm out. I don't really care enough about this to argue.

If people want to declare him KING of the guys who never won anything, fine.

LIke I said, I only commented because someone said he was top 25 all-time.

 

1. December 31st 1947 Ottawa Citizen “Biggest purse I ever shared was $2,900. It wasn’t my managers fault. The other fighters didn’t want me or I had to fight on any terms. I was offered money. I don't remember how much. To lose on purpose. It even hurts for someone to ask you.” - Charley Burley


oh look another black fighter of the era being asked to take dives.


2. Ring Magazine' had him in their top 10 for 100 months (from September 1938 to August 1947). No title shot.


3. Zivic and his manager Luke Carney took advantage of Burley and Goldsteins strained relationship and bought out Burley's contract. This not only prevented the two from meeting again in the ring it effectively froze Charley out of the world picture.


"Zivic had to buy Burley to avoid fighting him. I bought Charley from Zivic for $ 500. Fritzie promised me he'd sell him to me when he lost the welterweight title."- Tommy O'Loughlin told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

"When Zivic was in the money, he sold a bill of goods to one of my managers. He convinced him that he could do me good as my manager! And for very little he had my contract. Sam Silverman was on record, but Zivic was my real manager. He promised me a title shot at Freddie Cochrane for the title. Never got it, though." - Charley Burley


4. He was also frozen out of the welterweight division because Cochrane held the title from 1941-46 without making a single defense because of WW2, so Burley was forced to fight bigger guys.

"Tommy O'Loughlin, offered Cochrane $ 25,000 to defend his belt in Minneapolis vs Charley Burley. Cochrane was a connected fighter and certain individuals had control of where, when, and most importantly whom he fought. The offer was easily rejected. Taking a new tack, Burley proposed an offer to Cochran that Burley would fight for free, with his percentage going to the war fund. Charley and his management figured that the prospect of raising money for a good cause may prove appealing to the champion and he may be tempted into a defense. This tactic also proved fruitless. No deal." Charley Burley and Black Murderers Row, Harry Otty

"That's the way it goes. I do everything I can do get in there with the other challengers and prove my right to the title fight, but they stay away from me and I have to be satisfied with a high NBA Ranking and nothing else."- Charley Burley

Cochrane was inactive from 43-44 due to his service in the navy. This however, is no real excuse for his 4 years, two either side of his national service, of championship inactivity. During the time that he was world welterweight champion and active, Freddie had thirteen fights, including one and only defense of his title.

5. " O'Loughlin offered Billy Conn $ 10,000 plus 35% of the gate for Conn to defend his title vs Burley in Minneapolis. Conn, who had recently beaten Tony Zale on points, was attempting to secure a rematch with Joe Louis and his management had no intention of risking the big money and such a prestigious fight against Burley. Art Rooney, tried the best he could to get them two guys signed up. He thought he had the whole thing worked out, but Johnny Ray said there was no way that he was going to let Billy Conn fight Charley Burley. Art Rooney believed Conn vs Burley would have been the best fight this city ever had." - Charley Burley and Black Murders Row, Harry Otty

In a letter to Nat Fleischer, O'Loughran stated "I wrote to you from the coast and asked about the front cover of your magazine for Charley Burley. I'm having a tough time getting anybody to fight the fellow, and I'm offering really good money. Zivic and Garcia I offered them $ 4,000 with 35$% . Belloise's manager hung up on me when I called. You offer them 50% and they still wouldn't take it. Keep an eye on Burley, as you will hear lots more about the fellow soon, in fast company. Don't pass this fellow up, as he has the goods to deliver."

Despite weighing only 151lb, he hammered 6'4 219lb JD Turner around the ring until Turner quit because his stomach was full of swallowed blood. Burley took only 6 rounds to accomplish what Conn couldn't do in 10. Charley made sure the message got sent out to Billy Conn.

With the win over Turney, O'Loughlin wired Mike Jacobs in New York and informed him that Charley would box for free on the upcoming benefit show. He received no reply.

Local Minneapolis Press sent an open letter to Mike Jacobs "Burley wants to fight for nothing and he wants to fight no one but a top man. Isn't that fair?"

Finally Jacobs relented and put Burley as feature at the Mecca of boxing, vs McQuillian at St Nick's arena.

" It could be argued that the display put on by Burley shied them away from any thoughts of ever matching any of their fighters with him. While McQuillan was not world class, he was a decent test for most. He never landed a single shot on Burley and the manner of defeat was so conclusive that he retired from boxing afterwards. Charley had been brought to New York City so that the fistic fraternity could have first-hand experience of this fighting phenom. Although the viewing was brief, it was enough for most and as far as local managers were concerned Burley became a gold star member of the 'who needs him' club. Burley's good all right, too good, frankly he would have made himself more acceptable to name foes around here by merely winning a decision. Boxing is such a funny business."- Lester Bromburg, World Telegram


6. "A fighter so good that he is shunned by all the big name boys in his division is the case of Charley Burley. Well-known fighters are still avoiding him like the plague.- Pittsburgh Newspaper Report

"In 1946, Burley was sparring at Stillman's gym looking for new representation. Lew Burston, whom managed euro fighters, saw Burley in action and told him he could get him a fight with French Middleweight Marcel Cerdan. Cerdan was looking for ranked opposition in the US. When Cerdan arrived in the US, Charley was contacted to come to the gym and train and spar so that Burton could see them both in action. Cerdan practically ran out of the gym and Burston was informed a fight between him and Burley would be a non starter. Burston already had Charley's name on a contract to fight Cerdan, but couldn't get the frenchmans signature for the bout. So Burston took over.

In 1946 they raised $ 60,000 in escrow from businessman in Pittsburgh and NY and offers went out to all the middleweights including Zale, Graziano, Cerdan, Lamotta, Belloise, and Levine. His manager launched a heavy campaign to force official recognition of him as number one contender and most logical NBA to the graziano-zale winner. Despite heavy backing and large $, there were no takers. " Charley Burley and the Black Murderers Row Harry Otty

Ring Magazine Ratings Jan 1947

Champ Tony Zale (white)

1. Jake Lamotta (White) - got title shot
2. Charley Burley (black) no title shot
3. Rocky Graziano (White) got title shot
4. Marcel Cerdan (white) got title shot
5. Georgie Abrams (white) got title shot

 

"When you consider a lightweight couldn't catch him with a hard shot, it is little wonder that Charley never worried too much about heavyweights and their power. Obviously, Charley didn't want to get hit clean by this particular heavyweight, but as a result of his defensive tactics he unintentionally began to make Elmer Ray look foolish. Elmer, feeling embarrassed, shoved Charley backwards through the ropes and on to the ring apron. Charley (who doesn't wear headgear when he spars) got to his feet and dusted himself off before continuing. Most people that knew Charley also knew that he would not let anyone, regardless of size or reputation, make a fool of him. Elmer "Violent" Ray, sensing that he had Charley rattled met him at ring centre and unloaded one his patented bombs at Charley's jaw. Charley slipped the shot over his right shoulder while simultaneously delivering his own right to the point of Ray's chin. When he woke up several minutes later, Elmer Ray found that Charley was still in the ring waiting for him to make eye contact with him. When he did, Charley pointed his right glove at the 200lb plus heavyweight. His message was received. The whole gym started talking excitedly about what they had just seen. A heavy welterweight had just knocked out a ranked heavyweight contender stone cold with one punch. Years later, Burley named his dog "Elmer".

Howard Brandon, Boxing Historian, remembers that word spread fast about the Burley-Ray sparring session.

"Burley would walk into a gymnasium and ranking fighters, particularly heavyweights, would run to the showers so they wouldn't have to spar with him."

- Charley Burley and the Black Murderers Row, Harry Otty

 

Sounds like Charlie Burley was most certainly an incredible talent.

 

"He was the best fighter I ever fought, and the best fighter I ever saw. I was getting along pretty well went they made the Burley match for me in 44. I recall not being too impressed by Burley, of course. I knew he had to be a better than good fighter by the way he'd been scaring everybody to death on the coast. There had been stories about how he had chased heavyweights out of the gym, and stiffened sparring partnered with big training gloves. But you must take into consideration that I've never been burdened with false modesty. The thing that stands out the most in my mind about Burley was the way he defied gravity. He could lean way back on his heels and just make you miss. Well, you'd figure, this man's way off balance, he can't break an egg from that position. Then you'd get the surprise of your life. Charley Burley could knock you dead from that position and he could do it with either hand. He had me on the floor many times, but more than that he out-boxed me. That's something I couldn't understand, no one had ever done that before. And no one, incidentally, has done it since."- Archie Moore

 

Great stuff that was a fine read. I'll add some Arcel stuff later if i can find it.

 

Burley is past his prime here and giving up a huge size advantage to a ranked 6'0 tall Light -Heavyweight Oakland Billy Smith, and Burley wins with ease.

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You see the greatness. He reminds me so much of Bernard Hopkins, but I think he hit harder than Hopkins. Burley's skills were so far ahead of his time. He was so smooth and elegant. Burley's left hand was fast and nasty! The step back jab and lead spear, which burley would triple up. Masterful left hooks to the body. His long powerful overhand rights and beautiful counters. I loved how he fought so gracefully out of a crouch with shoulder rolls and athletic bobbing and weaving. I can only imagine what Burley looked like in his prime at 147

 

The last part is the best evidence for racism, but is also a bit circumstantial.

The other material is a ridiculous level of chicanery, ducking, and corruption directed against a fighter. I'm curious whether there's any explicit evidence of racial bias -- as opposed to Burley lacking connections, etc. -- that has survived?

It's difficult to untangle these things when people aren't as open about it as they were in the early 1900s. Especially since racism can be the direct cause of the problem (i.e., racist people duck him because they are prejudiced against him), but also the indirect cause (i.e., a racist society leaves Burley poor, less marketable, and with fewer connections, hence he gets ducked.)

 

Have a look at the sheer unorthodox genius and cat like balance here as he slips into a right foot forward stance, stutters back a little then unleashes a leaping left hook before, in a split second, coming down perfectly balanced in an orthodox stance ready to take advantage of any positional advantage the unique move has gained. Now in this case the opponent has slipped the hook beautifully and slid his upper body back to stay out of danger. I bet others weren't always so fortunate. It's blatantly obvious the guy is one great fighter. Smith too is most impressive. Burley's sense of range is supreme and you can see the guy is an absolute rhythm breaker. He'd be terrible to fight against, just terrible.

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