Ali's "Gift Decisions" Revisited

Peak Frazier was arguably the night he beat Ali.

Lets put it this way, Frazier was closer to his peak than Ali was when they fought the first time at Madison Square Garden. Ali was never the same after he was banned from the sport for 3 years. He was still a great fighter, but he wasn't what he was in the mid 60s.

 

And maybe that Ali in the 60’s doesn’t do as good as the 70’s version either. Really who did Ali really fight in the 60’s that was as tough as the fighters he fought in the 70’s????? 50 year old Liston who took a dive???? Patterson???? His competition had something to do with him not looking as good. Hell Foreman was away for 10 years and look what he did

 

Liston wasn't 50 and he didn't take a dive the first time. In Miami Beach Cassius Clay beat Prime Sonny Liston. That version would have danced circles around Frazier.

 

Nobody knows Sonny’s real age. And I wasn’t talking the 1st fight. Liston was in shape for the 2nd fight then it got delayed and he said o well. Plus after that he was told to throw it.
That was not a Prime Liston in the First Clay/Ali or whatever you want to call him fight. Just like Ali didn’t give Foreman a rematch because he was scared. Liston gets one??? Frazier and Norton 3 fights each. Foreman???? Yeah get my point!!!!

 

Ali beat Foreman by taking him to Zaire and Foreman didn't know how to travel and was in bad shape for the fight. It was a masterful performance by Ali over Foreman but Foreman looked like he had some voodoo stuff going on with him. It was Prime Liston when Clay beat him the first time in Miami Beach, Sonny looked as fearsome and as intimidating as ever in the early rounds. I mean he might have slowed down from his peak but he wasn't the sort of fighter who you would notice getting older, he didn't need too much speed or athleticism. He just walked you down and pummelled you. Liston wasn't far removed from his peak when Clay beat him. That version of Liston would probably have beaten the version of Foreman who Ali beat in Africa. But Prime Foreman, like the version who mopped the floor was Frazier would have, or could have destroyed Sonny Liston, or 1970s Ali. But maybe 60s Ali could have dealt with Prime Foreman, not the Africa version but normal Foreman before that, was very dangerous, maybe more dangerous than Sonny Liston, surely he was more a devastating puncher at his peak than Liston was, but that's not to say Liston wasn't a devastating puncher, he was too, just a more basic style than Foreman who threw absolute bombs.

 

And Foreman also says nice things about all fighters in his old age and sometimes changes his story……. Sure he would have had doubts. But if Foreman didn’t want a rematch why didn’t he just retire after his loss to Ali? And o yeah he was gonna get that fight if he beat Jimmy Young in 1977. 3 years later. In a lot of ways Ali was a bigot. Doing for promotion’s of fights etc…. I’m ok with that. But he went overboard with some of his antics.

 

I had a contemporary mag that covered the Ali - Shavers fight in 77. In contrast to the struggle the older Ali endured, it stated that the prime Ali would’ve used Earnie’s head like a speed bag. Simple, accurate and to the point.

 

Brilliant post.

 

@cross_trainer

How do you explain away Ali beating Frazier in their next two fights?

Frazier was 2 years younger than Ali.
Frazier had around half a dozen less fights.
Frazier had been fighting professionally for about 5 years less.
Frazier didn't have to come back from an enforced layoff or years at his peak.

Given you aren't accepting the ring rust excuse for Ali i think it's fair that the commonly held excuse for Frazier i.e. that he took so much punishment in FOTC that he was never the same again can be cast aside given that Frazier actually won i.e. Ali took even more punishment.

Just to pre-empt some people will claim fighters aren't built the same and Ali could take that sort of punishment better than Joe and Joe pushed himself to superhuman limits blah blah blah but i think that's an unfair stance personally. If we accept this then Ali was always going to pump him in a series of fights even past prime. I do agree tho with your comment Ali was a different proposition in the 60's - that much is obvious IMO.

I'm also not overly partial to the Foreman loss wear and tear excuse given Joe kept getting up and finished on his feet. The excuse for that one is that Futch said he laxed off in training as he'd become content. Well we see in here time and time again that Joe had an intense hated of Ali so it wouldn't be feasible to say he was in anything but pinnacle shape for any and all Ali battles.

 

This "oh, he was so past it, so it doesn't count talk" gets pulled waaaaaayy too much on this forum. In the other thread it was Gomez who was some washed up shell for Sanchez.

Truth is that there wasn't very much difference in Joe after FOTC in the fights where he was in top shape: the Ali fights and the Quarry rematch. He had slowed a bit, yes, but that was true of Ali for all the fights. In terms of conditioning Joe was the same fo all their three fights imo, while Ali's legs never regained their endurance after the exile.

I think all this is pretty clear form the film of the fights. Still he is 2-1 in their trilogy.

 

Ali also had a different game plan in the second, moved much more. This game plan was of course helped by the fact that it was 12 and not 15 and that Perez was lenient toward the holding. Also by that Joe had slowed down. But that was true for Ali already in FOTC, so this brought them on a more level playing field in terms of loss of speed. Joe's stamin was the same , though, which isn't true for Ali.

They were more equal in how removed from their prime they were, but Joe was still closer to his.

 

I agree.

 

Just to add Ali also had more rounds under his belt by this point after the enforced layoff.

 

I still find it bewildering that Joe is excused for suddenly being past prime less than 8 rounds removed from FOTC and thereafter.