Sonny Liston Vs Larry Holmes

At first glance I thought easy, Holmes wins a unanimous decision but that is not how it played out. Liston must have thought the same thing and was set on knocking out Holmes well before Round 15. Liston came out fast in the first and won it big, the second Holmes rocked him twice and then once in the fourth. The third went to Liston to make it a close one. The pace was fast and that played right into the fists of Liston. Holmes beat the count of 10 in the 5th and then again in the 7th. In the 8th the fight slowed with Liston being the aggressor. While Liston lead the 5-3 in rounds he had taken a lot of punishment earlier in the fight. In the 9th Larry Holmes was at his best knocking down Liston for an 8 count and then 23 seconds later with 54 seconds left in the round Liston failed to get-up. Holmes KO 9 Liston.

 

Holmes did not have the same moment as a young Ali, nor did he possess the same hand speed. Holmes would have a tougher time against Liston than Ali. Holmes, a poor man's Ali, might even get knocked out by Liston. Holmes still got tagged plenty by guys who weren't particularly fast.

Although if he can keep Sonny away via the jab he should win a tough decision ... If you win the battle of the jabs against a jabber you set yourself up for victory.

 

Liston by KO. No doubt.

 

Liston beats Holmes by close decision

 

Gotta go with this! Larry's skill & heart see him through a tough fight, possibly having to get up from a knockdown, but nothing like the Shavers knockdown.

 

I surprise myself by picking Larry by dec here.

 

A couple of things to point out.

Liston, like most other Ali opponents is overrated because of Ali’s mythic stature that came more from Ali’s personal charisma and status as a political figure than from his fighting.

Holmes at peak was almost as quick and much more accurate than a young Ali, and hit quite a bit harder. His reach was also a bonafide 81-82 inches, and his arm length from armpit to knuckles was astonishingly long.

Liston’s reach has been listed as low as 79” and as high as 84”. If you watch he and Ali (who had a 79 inch reach) Ali clearly had the reach advantage… probably due to arm length. Liston was attributed as having an 84 inch reach to promote him like they promote wrestlers with billed height and weight. Liston was 6’1”. There is no way he out reached or out jabs Holmes. Liston had a wide back which probably made his wingspan more but that’s not how reach advantage works.

Also Liston’s power was overrated. His reputation came from destroying a popular champion in Floyd Patterson in one round twice. And Patterson was essentially a light heavyweight. lListon was not a one punch knockout artist, nor did he have a very high KO percentage. In fact it was about the same as Holmes through 50 wins…

However if you really look at Sonny Liston’s opponents’ records, he was fighting a lot of fighters who routinely got knocked out. While Holmes actually set the record with 8 consecutive title defenses by KO. I am not convinced that Liston had more power than prime Holmes. Holmes would throw that right and could hurt or knock down anyone with it.

Also, look at Liston’s losses. Two KO losses to a young Ali who had trouble getting past Doug Jones and Henry Cooper and who hadn’t matured into his body? A split decision loss to 19-6 Marty Marshall?

A kayo at the hands of Leotis Martin? 50 year old Holmes is not losing to Leotis Martin.

Exactly who on Liston’s record that he beat is even on par with the 5th-6th best fighter Holmes beat? Nobody.

This fight goes much the way Liston Clay 1 went. Holmes stops him in the middle rounds after bloodying and humiliating a fighter of good power but just above average skills. Holmes was a master and made 20 title defenses. Liston made ONE. Against the light heavyweight he beat for the title.

Holmes was bigger, much faster of hand and foot, just as strong, had just as good or better a chin, better recuperative powers, was levels above in skill, much more determined, had better stamina, was much more versatile and was 5x the fighter that Liston ever was. Both had excellent chins. Holmes was down only twice during his championship years, to Shavers and Snipes. Liston had no real championship run as he only had one defense, but he was also down twice, and once later when he was older.

Holmes of 82 wins this fantasy matchup relatively easily winning almost every round up until he closes Liston’s eye with the jab and/or cuts him up and stops him. He survives a scary moment or two where Liston connects.

Once you dispel the notion that Ali was so much better than everyone else and really look at actual performance in the ring, these fantasy matchups become obvious.

 

You are calling out Liston’s reach as inaccurate. The burden of proof is on you to dispel all the pieces of evidence that point to his reach as 84”. Reach measurement is "wingspan" so it has little to do with actual reach in the ring. A wide torso, the specific structure of the glenohumeral joint (where the arm connects to shoulder) and the length of fingers can add several inches to reach. Either bring real evidence or concede this claim.


Liston BEGAN boxing in 1952. In 1953 he fought future Olympic Champion Ed Sanders in the Midwestern Golden Gloves Heavy Finals.

Liston was a fast learner, and a natural

"Liston, Boxing only 7 months, whipped the 6 foot 4 Sanders with some stout in-fighting." - Globe Democrat 1953

Liston in his next tournament won the National Golden Gloves Title over highly touted Julius Griffin of New York

"Liston's victory was particularly sweet to St Louis Rooters, because the published opinion of both Chicago and New York Sportswriters have been that Griffin wouldn't have much trouble winning." - Globe Democrat 1953

Liston then sparred with pro contender Nino Valdes before his fight with Archie Moore in 1953.

"Early this year, Liston worked out with the 230lb Nino Valdes, as the big fellow was preparing for a bout here with Archie Moore. Valdes, at the time, the quicker of the two, stepped in and caught liston flush on the chops with a good right. Liston never blinked his eyes and sailed into Valdes with a tremendous body attack that had the huge cuban giving ground." - Globe Democrat 1953

He knocked out a hall of fame champion twice in one round. Who was in his prime. Has that ever been done before?

He was 194 1/2lb in the rematch. Hardly a light-heavyweight weighing 19lb over the limit.

Actually Patterson only weighed 8lb less than 203lb Mike Weaver did vs Holmes. Weaver had Holmes staggered around the ring multiple times on rubber legs. What does this say about Holmes?

Let's take a look at Liston's best opponents he knocked out, whom you say routinely got knocked out, and compare them with Larry's 8 consecutive opponents.

50 bouts (Cleveland Williams) - Had been knocked out just once.
54 bouts (Zora Folley)- Had been knocked out 3 times.
30 bouts (Roy Harris)- had been knocked out just once
40 bouts (floyd patterson) - Had been knocked out just once
66 bouts (Nino Valdes)- knocked out 4 times.
41 bouts (Mike Dejohn)- Had been knocked out just once.
25 bouts (Wayne Bethea)

All of these men listed above were under the age of 28 when they fought Liston with the exception of Nino Valdes (34 years old)

Holmes 8 men he knocked out were of the following

25 Bouts (Alfredo Evangelista)
13 bouts (Ossie Ocasio)
27 bouts (Mike Weaver)- Had been knocked out 4 times
66 Bouts (Earnie Shavers)- Had been knocked out 3 times
31 bouts (Lorenzo Zanon)- Had been knocked out 3 times
25 bouts (Leroy Jones )
38 bouts (Scott Ledoux)- had been knocked out 3 times
Muhammad Ali- You wanna go here?

Seems to me Holmes opposition got knocked out just as often as Liston's opposition. If we take the amount of bouts into consideration, then liston's opponents appear to have a much better percentage of not being stopped, than holmes opposition.

That's asinine.

Liston put contenders away early.

Bethea- 1 round
Williams- 2 rounds
Williams- 3 rounds
Folley- 3 rounds
Valdes- 3 rounds
Harris- 1 rounds
Patterson- 1 round
Patterson- 1 rounds

Meanwhile during Holmes title reign, he only put 2 men out of 20 away before the 5th round in title defenses

Leon Spinks- 3 rounds
Marvis Frazier- 1 round

There is no comparison. When Liston landed flush, the fight was soon over. He had a crippling ATG left hook, that was gifted from birth. He could destroy any man with it. His right hand was clubbing, but extremely damaging, and his uppercuts sent fighters to sleep. Let's not forget his left jab, which is described as one of the best of all time.

Holmes needed many rounds, and a lot of sustained punishment to put fighters away. He was an attrition puncher.

"The UPI stated that Wayne Bethea lost 7 teeth during the one round fight."
https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Sonny_Liston_vs._Wayne_Bethea

"In achieving tonight's victory over Patterson, Liston gave evidence of being a good boxer and a terrifying hitter."- New York Times, July 23rd 1963

Two common opponents between Liston and Foreman (Scrap Iron Johnson and Chuck Wepner) both said Liston hit harder than Foreman

Young Ali? you mean prime Ali? Ali looked pretty mature at 210 1/2lb which was his same fighting weight in 1966-1967

 

In his 7th pro fight in 1954. Liston began boxing in 1952. This loss was twice avenged by knockout and shutout decision.

Who was holmes fighting in his 7th pro fight? 188lb Kevin Issac who knocked Holmes on his behind with a right hand

Who cares? Were comparing them prime for prime.

Would a peak Liston have struggled for 15 rounds with a 35 year old Ken Norton?

Would a peak Liston have dumped his belt in the trash to avoid a mandatory contender the way Holmes did?

Would a peak Liston have avoided rematches in close fights the way Larry did?

Didn't Larry lose his undefeated record to a light-heavyweight? then lose to him again?

bigger? He weighed between 210lb-215lb from ages 28-30. Same as Liston. Except Liston was muscular, while larry had a dad bod.

Just as strong?

"Sonny Liston is the strongest fighter I have ever seen. Once I saw him pick up the front end of a Ford-pick it right up off the ground...showing off! Somebody said he couldn't do it."- Monroe Harrison, Manager

Larry's speed edge was nullified by his big ego to brawl which could spell doom vs Liston. Larry would get hurt in exchanges with Liston.

levels above in skill? exactly how?

" Liston was a very good boxer in his prime, which was the late-50's and early-60's."- Ernie Terrell

Liston had great head movement, a pulvarizing long telephone pole left jab, he had very good stamina and could fight for 15 hard rounds if he needed to.

Liston cleaned out his division before he won the title, because the champion avoided fighting him until President Kennedy peer pressured him into fighting. Then he had to fight a prime muhammad ali.

Holmes won the title by 1 point against a 35 year old Norton. Holmes didn't have a prime Ali to deal with, instead Holmes got to fight a lot of very soft opponents, and toward the end of his reign holmes ducked several good fighters.

 

Another thing

Liston was fed to the wolves early and often

fought a good young fighter Johnny Summerlin in his 5th and 6th pro fights

fought seasoned pro Marty Marshall in 8th pro fight

scheduled to fight hall of Famer Harold Johnson in his 14th pro fight then Johnson pulled out 3 days out

what was Holmes doing early in his career? He was fed a pile of trash. He was coddled like a baby. He never took on any of the 1970s killers until he fought 35 year old Ken Norton (who almost beat him) and shavers (perfect stylistic matchup)

 

And don’t forget Larry had hurt his arm before the Norton fight- that hurt is performance. Fight was almost canceled. And he had the flu before the Weaver fight. Not making excuses but these are legit and I’m sure it hurt his performance.

 

Well the same could be said against Rocky who the heck did he fight besides old men and nobody’s????

 

If you wanna get technical about it nobody could carry Larry’s jockstrap

 

Not so much now but before, if anything, Liston’s boxing abilities were underrated.

More footage really opened up my eyes to his skills.

Apparently that was the only time Bethea was ever knocked down or stopped. The teeth thing really gets me, makes me check my own to make sure they’re still in there - nice and solid.

Interesting to read an anecdote upholding Liston‘s literal strength outside the ring. In the ring, I don’t see Sonny manhandling or attempting to manhandle his his opp. so much - certainly nothing like Foreman did with express intention.

Sonny had a lot more going skills wise than to be bothered with over done push and shove.

The impression of Liston’s “strength”’as I see it was mainly conveyed by his durability and power of punch.

However, given the physique and some vision in training, I’ve no doubt Sonny was exceptionally strong in literal terms.

 

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