Pinning down the definition of "journeyman" for heavyweights

Yes. Their very few good journeyman these days. Men who used to fight often find don't attract the type of gates / purses to let them do their thing the way they did in the past. But fringe contends they are lots of them! Men who build up impressive records vs weak competition.

Hammer has made to the gate keeper stage, meaning if you beat him now you may have a future. He has passed the fringe contender stage.

 

He’s lost his ambition after he lost to Povetkin.
Clearly in it just for the money however has the guile and experience to give it a go even out of shape.
Case in point when he fought Sanchez I believe he was in the US with a stable mate who pulled out and he took it on days notice and went the distance.
Took a round and la ded some hard rights on Joyce on 3 weeks notice.
Had some good wins during his ambition era like Johnson,Mazikin,Teper,Price,Wallisch or Sprott.

 

Alfredo Evangelista

Scott LeDoux

Jesse Ferguson

 

If the judges give you a round just for showing up … you might be a journeyman.

 

He checked out after Ortiz. He beat Wallisch after losing to Povetkin.

 

He should retire at this point though.

 

Ferguson is IMO the definition of gatekeeper (which I use as a compliment). He was good enough to weed out the pretenders coming up, catch a legit contender or two their off night, but generally fall short when fighting top ten opposition.

For the OP's original question there are high level journeymen (skilled, generally in shape though limited or no concentrated training camp, come to fights to put up honest resistance) and lower level journeymen (no hopers, out of shape, limited to no skill, fold rather quickly). I guess it depends, but when I think of heavyweight journeymen the first names popping in my head are Marion Wilson, Everett Bigfoot Martin, Garing Lane

 

I would consider them (Wilson, Martin, Lane) "opponents." Wilson literally fought everyone and lost to them all. (Although, the Mercer draw was a straight up robbery). He had 45 losses/draws and 12 wins. That's "opponent" to me.

Journeymen are guys who are better than the worst, who beat some names here and there, and who are good enough to hang with the best ... but are pretty much expected to (and do) lose. Sometimes they are contenders (after an upset here or there). Most of the time they aren't.

They are like in heavyweight limbo. They get all the opportunities in the world against names, they just don't win them the majority of the time. But they're always floating around because they're better than the "opponents."

They are always on the "fringe" of contendership ... depending on their last fight.

 

Ah maybe our definitions are slightly off from each other. In that case Maurice Harris, Kevin Johnson, Ross Puritty

 

For a lot of guys it also depends on what state of their careers they were in. I believe there have been many who have coasted in and out of the role of journeyman.

1. Jim Braddock - promising young prospect - journeyman - contender - world champion

2. Oliver Mccall - Journeyman - contender - champion - contender again - journeyman again

3. Jessie Ferguson - promising young prospect - journeyman

 

Right. Journeyman are good enough that they can occasionally surprise and become a champion. It just depends on when they "get hot" or when they score their big "upset" here and there.

Run of the mill "Opponents" don't tend to.

Mike Weaver was another who took the journeyman, contender, champion, contender again, journeyman again ... route.

 

I think you can make a case that there are three classes we’re talking about here (will try to supply examples, but they often move up and down from one class to the other over time or for periods of time):

Gatekeepers: Jesse Ferguson, George Chaplin, Pierre Coetzer (at some points beat decent opposition and might be fringe contenders or actual contenders from time to time, but they mostly only lose to good fighters — or each other in the rare instances that they meet)

Journeymen: Bigfoot Martin, Leroy Caldwell, Marion Wilson (they give you good rounds, give an honest effort, rarely if ever pull off the upset but you do have to work for it)

Opponents: Corey ‘T-Rex’ Sanders, Mike Dixon, Dan Wofford* (never pull off the upset, don’t give much in the way of resistance, there to pick up a paycheck)

Wofford usually went rounds with all but the very top guys but he mostly just kept his hands up, chin down and hardly punched. Short, round guy as I recall who rarely won a round (and never against a good fighter) but he was mostly sought after as almost a sparring session that shows up on your record — guys who needed rounds to shake off rust or who had never been 8 or 10 rounds would enlist him for a safe win to work on things.

That’s kind of how I see it.

 

I hear he’s a very handsome know nothing poster.

 

I think that blurs the difference with bum/tomato can?

 

IMO the lower opponents would be already in tomato can territory