Pinning down the definition of "journeyman" for heavyweights

I think Pierre was a prospect right up until he fought Bowe.

After that he was matched hard for the last six months of a ten year career as a prospect/house fighter.

He sold tickets. I don’t think he counts.

 

A journeyman is the guy brought in to fight the house fighter. The house fighter is the guy who sold the tickets.

A journeyman can be a good fighter. He has a name. But he’s not bringing any fans with him.

It’s not his show. He needs to fight more often than the guy who actually sells tickets.

maybe he can steal a win if he lands a lucky punch. But he’s not going to get a decision.

 

How about this

Champion: best of the division, lineal or undisputed or widely recognized for various reasons

Top Ten Contenders: best ten in the division. Since boxers now fight so irregularly there can be a lot of debate on the bottom half, but the top half usually relatively easy to rank depending on preference, but the sameish top 5 guys

Gatekeepers: Lose to top ten usually but will beat prospects, fringe contenders, and journeymen of all sorts. Chisora/Ferguson being examples here

Fringe Contenders: think guys around 10-20ish, lose once they get to top ten or settle into this fringe contender role after losing prospet status or as they age and skills diminish. Can be moved carefully up the ladder and get time to prepare for fights (more than journeymen). Think Takam, current Pulev, Bakole

High level Journeymen: solid if unspectacular pros who lose to the best, take fights on short notice, but put in an honest effort, sometimes springing an upset. Will lose to gatekeepers generally and prospects/fringe contenders. Think Kevin Johnson, Maurice Harris

Journeymen: lose to everyone but no hopers, rarely spring an upset, have some skill but know what they are there to do, get their opponents (the A side) rounds and experience. Think Marion Wilson, Mike Dixon etc

No hopers: Guys who lose miserably to everyone but other no hopers. Very limited skills, get KOd easily or look for the canvas when things get rough. Offer almost nothing but a learning experience record padding and/or keep busy for their opponents. Too many names to list but you know who I am talking about

Prospects: guys who are promoted and matched well depending on their age they turn pro. Generally start out KOing/beating no hopers, move on to tougher but limited journeymen, then higher level journeymen, fringe contenders, gatekeepers, top ten contenders to champion. At certain points they may fail and become one of the aforementioned categories. Can be on various stages of this ladder until they beat a gatekeeper or contender usually. Think Wardley, Hrgovic.

Note: Boxers can slide into different categories throughout their careers. Example: Tim Witherspoon went from something like prospect > Top Ten Contender/beltholder (post Holmes)> Fringe contender (post Smith II)> top Ten contender (mid 90s resurgence) > Fringe contender (post Donald)

 

Good point, I made another post here covering those categories.

 

A journeyman is a professional opponent. And he’s full time boxer.

He’s the guy who tests out the prospects and keeps the contenders busy in marking time fights. He’s good enough not to get shown up.

The best journeyman is a guy who only a champion or a top contender is going to knockout.

He’s in high demand because he goes the distance. Fights often. Travel’s everywhere.

 

A gatekeeper is below a journeyman. A journeyman wins a couple good ones. Which is why Pierre Coetzer, mentioned several times above, is not a journeyman but a hype job. When Johnny DuPlooy is your best win, you are not in elite company, or even semi-elite.

Greatest journeyman... Jersey Joe Walcott.

 

In close fights with their more famous fighters journeymen often get shafted on the cards. Like Don Kings fighters, you don't want to bet against them when he has a vested interest in them winning.

 

He definitely was a journeyman by the time he was rolled out for Foreman, and he never showed himself to be higher than that level. He was sort of like David Price but more lightly regarded.

 

Others not mentioned:
Ken Lakusta
Alex Sterwat
Lou Savarese
Crawford Grimsley
Chuck Wepner
Qawi at heavyweight

 

I’m not sure about that.

A gatekeeper is ranked. That’s who a potential challenger must climb over to get to the title. He opens the gate to the championship. Or not.

He Can be an ex champ..or. Former title challenger. He’s had his time in the sun but he’s got fights left in him. And to beat him shows a guy is going places.

Gatekeepers beat journeymen. That’s who they maintain their status against. And a gatekeeper has fans. They sell tickets. Sometimes a gatekeeper can fight out of his hometown..whereas a journeyman travels.

Compared to a gatekeeper a journeyman isn’t necessarily always a former challenger or a former champion…although Former challengers and champions can be forced to adopt the journeyman role if they stay in boxing too long.

 

I think Savarese and Stewart had a fan base at one time and fought out of a home town. They sold tickets.

I don’t think Journeymen fight for the house. The house is always against them. They are cast as the heel. the “selected opposition” for a show that often times is already sold out.

Lakusta is a good shout

 

Agreed. Mike Weaver was another very good example of this

 

So the great Joe Louis arguably lost his record breaking title reign to a journeyman? The great Ezzard Charles lost his title to a journeyman who slipped his jab and threw a perfect counter left hook? The great Rocky Marciano nearly lost his unbeaten record to a 38 year old Journeyman who battered him around the ring for 12 rounds? The great Jimmy Bivins' amazing 4 year unbeaten streak, which included several victories over future hall of famers, came to an end against a journeyman?

 

San Francisco Chronicle, 11/30/47
"As a journeyman fighter (Walcott) who wants to stay in the business, he has learned to protect himself, even at the cost of displeasing the crowd."

Washington Evening Star, 12/6/47
"Joe Louis... today is wearing a tarnished crown which belongs on the fuzzy semibald head of Jersey Joe Walcott, 34-year old journeyman heavyweight and ebony-hued father of six children."

Plain Dealer 6/23/48
"(Walcott) only lately come to be recognized as a fair journeyman operator after 17 years of ring warfare."

Washington Evening Star 12/8/49
"Walcott doesn't have youth. His older than Louis. Jersey Joe lacks the vicious, killing instinct which lifted Dempsey to the peak of popularity... He is, in short, a plodding journeyman heavyweight who had his night."

Burton Hawkins, Buffalo News, 7/30/48
(Walcott) He's a moderately talented, but extremely cautious- a 34-year old journeyman heavyweight who finds himself squarely in the championship picture strictly due to the mediocrity of his competition."

Milwaukee Journal, 6/22/48
"For Walcott is strictly a second rater, a journeyman boxer working at a trade."

Richmond Times Dispatch, 3/5/50
"The heavyweights are such a poor lot that a journeyman fighter (Walcott), who once quit the ring but came back to fight regularly, can make the No. 7 heavyweight look like a novice amateur scrapper."

Oregon Journal, 7/20/51
"His is a story- which for sheer drama- rivals that of another old man, Jim Braddock. The both hail from New Jersey and each was a journeyman for years without ever getting past first base in their race for fame and fortune."

Commercial Appeal, Memphis, 6/5/52
"Though he's an effective journeyman artilleryist, Walcott's style places heavy demands upon his legs as he jibs about in the manner of barefooted man on a sun-blasted tin roof."

 

I thought about Price for a bit but for me a journeyman has to be fairly durable. Coetzer would beat Price imo, I think he was better than Teper and Hammer.