Question relating to Liston who sliced Chuck open. How much did sonny have left in this bout? How good a fighter was chuck at the time for Liston to get a win? Would you say Liston, if obviously he hadn't passed, was still a dangerous contender, or would he have failed in his next step up? Watching Liston v wepner has put these thoughts in my head!
He was still a dangerous contender, but perhaps past the point he could have fought Frazier. At that time Quarry and Chuvalo might both have given him problems imo.
Looking at what Foreman did to a peak Frazier a couple years later, I don't think Feazier would have been a problem for Liston.
A 1970 Liston who’d just been brutally knocked out by Frazier’s sparring partner wouldn’t have had a problem? Do you hear yourself right now?
Martin wasn't Frazier's sparring partner. He was Liston's sparring partner. Check the facts before posting,
Martin was Liston's sparring partner but he was also Frazier's stablemate later in his career as both were managed by Yancey Durham. Joe took many lumps in early sparring sessions against seasoned Philadelphia professionals like Leotis Martin and Bennie Briscoe. Durham said, “They banged the stuffing out of him but Joe never backed down or gave up.” https://ndl.ethernet.edu.et/bitstream/123456789/76592/1/96.pdf
I think it's ridiculous to extrapolate from that that Frazier could beat Liston. That's a stretch WAY too far.
It's not that Frazier COULD beat Liston he would've flattened him much the same way Martin did. Likely worse and earlier. Liston was a shot fighter. If one is to believe the 1950 census. he would've been 48 for the Wepner bout. He honestly didn't look much younger than that to me tbh.
You also think Butterbean beats Patterson and that John L Sullivan is better than Ali..... if you did agree I would be concerned.
I think by 1970 and following the Martin loss of 1969, Sonny Liston had become basically hit or miss in terms of what he was capable of. Were there still ranked contenders around that he MIGHT have beaten ? Perhaps. But his time anywhere near word class was gone.
Just imo, the result against Wepner was not a good gage to suggest Liston’s viability. Chuck would always be so made to order for Liston, right up until Sonny drew his last breath. One way or another, prime Liston would’ve had Chuck out of there in 3 rounds. The film quality of the fight is appalling but the beat down still comes through clearly enough. Still, due to the poor quality, nuances can be missed - I would assume that Liston himself was probably getting tired after 9 rounds - if only for steadily beating on Chuck. IIRC, the available footage shows Liston hit the canvas at some point - it was ruled a slip. It did seem Wepner landed a punch at the same time but I’ve never read any contention that Liston was knocked down. Maybe Chuck pulled the old step on the foot and punch routine - but it didn’t get past the ref on this occasion, LOL. Oh, and the distance of the camera’s POV at least highlights Liston’s incredibly long reach. I’ve read that Wepner was relatively short armed for his 6’5” height - but tbh, I’ve never seen an actual reach measurement for Chuck.
