Does it make any difference to you that Ali wasn't ktfo in the Holmes fight?

Never watched that or the Berbick fight either. Watching Leonard-Camacho was bad enough. I wish I could unsee it.

 

No, it should have been stopped two rounds earlier imo.

 

The Spinks fight was a beautiful ending, like a storybook. **** Herbert. **** the Nation.

 

I really can't blame the Nation. Ali had left it at that time but Herbert was still his manager.

 

It was very sad to see, and I'm glad Ali didn't get KOd. At the same time, taking that many blows while very old with diminished reflexes and endurance is detrimental to your health. Holmes obviously didn't hit as hard as other big punchers Ali faced, but getting hit by so many accurate punches likely made Ali's condition even worse in the long run.

People give Dundee credit for stopping the fight out of concern for Ali's health, but honestly he should have stopped it much sooner. It was a ridiculous display and a completely one sided fight almost immediately. If Dundee had true integrity he should have talked Ali out of it or refused to work the corner like Dr. Ferdie Pacheko who left after the Shavers fight seeing the poor condition Ali was in and tried to warn them.

 

Tim Witherspoon said Ali wasn't right immediately before the fight and he could hear them fighting in his suite whether to call it off. I forgot all the details but Ali had a prominent public relations team handling his post boxing career. When they learned he was coming out of retirement they were distraught.

 

Ali's history of rope-a-doping people probably made it harder to stop. When your style involves letting other people beat on you until they tire, I imagine it's harder for a ref to tell when things aren't going according to plan.

That aside, if you assume that the version of Ali from the Holmes fight is psychologically similar and has the same toughness as the younger one, the fight further strengthens the case that he was VERY hard to stop and VERY tenacious.

 

Except the punches were hurting and he wasn't hitting back.

 

Exactly. It doesn't matter how tough you are or if you don't even take a knee. If you're just standing there getting hit over and over without responding with anything significant, it's the referees job to give you a stern warning to fight back. If you continue to get pummeled, he is supposed to stop it regardless because it's very dangerous to allow a pro boxer to just tee off on someone with dozens of shots. It's a fight. If the fans want to see a one sided affair where the boxer doesn't even have to worry about anything coming back at him, they can watch someone hit a heavybag. The boxers health comes first.

 

All I can say is, if Larry ever eased off the gas pedal during the Ali fight, I didn't notice it. If anything, it looked to me like he was throwing more in the last couple of rounds, trying to knock Muhammad out.

 

Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes for the WBC title on Oct 2 1980 reminded me of the fight between Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano from Oct 26 1951. Marciano cried after having to destroy his boyhood idol who returned to the ring after owing the IRS because of crooked boxing officials. Holmes did idolized Ali, even once received a black eye in a sparring session against Ali, Holmes was proud of that shiner.

 

Exactly, thats why his tears at the end came across as crocodile tears and were out of place.
Like Ali said, why he punched me so badly then?

Ali dislikes Holmes as well for it I think. Given how asked Tyson to whoop Larry for him a few years later.

 

What was he supposed to do? Not punch his opponent in a boxing match?

I feel for Holmes there. If he hadn't taken the fight, he'd have been called an imposter afraid to fight the real thing. If he'd gone easy during the fight, he'd have been said to be unable to dominate a completely faded Ali because, again, he's just an imposter. Once Ali decided he wanted that fight, I don't see that Holmes had any good decision. The best of the bad choices in front of him was take the fight, take the money, try to end it quickly. Unfortunately, he couldn't KO him, and we got what we got.

 

Two things there. Ali wasn't exactly the greatest sportsman. Look how he treated Frazier. Also, just the shame of getting old and being publicly humiliated by his former sparring partner. Between those two, pretty obvious why he asked Tyson to do it.

If you hear Tyson talk about it today, he makes all kinds of excuses for Holmes.

 

Agree - Holmes was stuck between a rock and a hard place with the Ali fight. Also it’s true Ali wasn’t entirely respectful toward a number of opponents - worst example of all, Frazier. Holmes wasn’t obligated to apologise just for doing his job. However, and we’ll never know for sure, but I don’t believe Larry was necessarily as upset and regretful as he made out after the fight - more a PR move.