Lennox Lewis vs Rocky Marciano

Didn't hit hard enough!, You've gone to far I'm calling Don.

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The thing that made Lewis so tough is that he was big but not crude at all. He was a boxer with the mentality of a chess player. Lennox used his size a far as controlling range, keeping the fight on his terms. Lennox Lewis best right hand in heavyweight history to cap it off.
Not a fun guy to fight.

 

Not fun at all which is why when he was in shape he never was beat and rematches he was viscious

 

"Boxing expert" is a meaningless term usually self-employed by biased idiots with no more claim to the title that your average armchair historian, and considerably less so when it comes to anything involving the contemporary scene. And because logic and critical thinking are so thin on the ground among boxing's fandom it allows any old conman free rein to ply their trade. Bert Sugar is a case in point. A complete fraud who, simply by virtue of hanging around the scene long enough and picking up a few spicy stories (which, with his old school image and cigar-chomping persona were enough to enthrall the more credulous of fans) was able to make a nice living and even garner some sort of reputation as an authority, despite not knowing what the **** he was talking about most of the time.

Anyway, this is by the by. Yes, Rocky was a ridiculously hard training fighter, I've no reason to doubt that. That's not what I'm arguing about. I'm arguing that he can't be considered the hardest training of all time when there's no accurate evidence out there to make that claim. It's past the point of quibbling about anyway since in essence we're not really in disagreement. I just get a massive bee in my bonnet about ridiculous old school hyperbolic BS like the above (which I note you're still trying to peddle to me). But I trust I've made my point.

 

You're arguing nomenclature, which is completely irrelevant when debating a H2H. Is Rocky technically a HW because he fought in what was then the HW division of boxing? Yes. Does that mean he wouldn't be at a huge size and weight disadvantage if he were to compete in the division today? No.

SHW doesn't exist in the pro ranks so anyone that might be considered one is still technically a HW. But since you have such an issue with the division as it stands then name me a cruiserweight weighing 185lbs on fight night who's had some recent success.

Sounds like you're essentially capitulating to the fact that Marciano wouldn't be able to compete at HW today. That's good. That's progress.

Yes, any decently sized HW (which I assume you're excluding Marciano from) could potentially land a fight ending shot if they got enough weight and impact behind their shot. The same would be true if the punch was landing on the jaw of any fighter, no matter their chin. It doesn't tell us anything other than no one is immune to being KOed.

Chris Byrd? Eddie Chambers? There are certainly fighters that wouldn't be able to replicate what Rahman did because whatever his faults Rahman hit very hard.

Lewis generally was able to get out of the way of an OH right since he could got caught once in his entire professional career. On the occasions that he didn't he was able to take every shot bar that one. That fight really isn't a good barometer for success for anyone wanting to replicate what Rahman did since it was so obviously a fluke.

 

Rubbish. The Heavyweight division has always been open at the top end. That is what it is. It's really simple. They made a division for smaller heavyweights that had trouble competing as the average heavyweight got s bit bigger.

Again, the Heavyweight division is, always has been, and always will be open at the top end of the weight.

No, it was proof that the size of the smaller guys that were deemed at too much of a disadvantage were perceived to have been disadvantaged further hence as time marched on, so there were given 10 extra pounds of leeway.

Tyson was and still is a real Heavyweight champion. He weighed around 220 or a little under at his greatest which is miiiiles over the 200 pound cruiserweight level. The dude was bonafide. Again this is ever so simple.

Marciano was a Heavyweight champion too. Today, at the weight he fought, he would not be fighting as a Heavyweight.

Smaller guys like Usyk, if they are good enough, can move up to HEAVYWEIGHT and absolutely win titles and quite respected ones at that. We know this.

 

I mostly agree. Lewis was a very annoying opponent. He was huge but smart and had very few weaknesses when he was focused. He had good fundamentals and although he wasn't exactly fast, he was quick enough to tag anyone and it wasn't easy to land on him either when he didn't want to be tagged. Knew how to fight tall and technical, but also wasn't afraid to roll up his sleeves and fight aggressively on the front foot. Truly a h2h monster.

I think Wilder, Shavers, and possibly Baer and Wladmir might have had more powerful right crosses, but Lewis was no slouch at all in terms of raw right hand power. Definitely top 10. He also had great utility with his right hand using it as a means to score points, popping it out to deter a guy from charging in, setting up other punches in a combination, etc. He also knew when to throw the right hand and when to put all his weight into it with bad intentions, which is even more valuable than simply having a nuclear grade right hand.

 

Marciano would still be fighting as a heavyweight if they had not got the name wrong when they invented “Cruiserweight” which, as you know, kept the name heavyweight in amateur boxing. And that was the correct way to do it.

when you think about it, once superheavyweights turned pro from the Olympics, starting to call heavyweights cruiserweights was the worst thing to happen to boxing. Nobody knew at the time what it would mean when they started this.

But you don’t set the original sized guys adrift. They were there first! They already had their own division. Amateur boxing got it right. Pro boxing got it wrong. New sized boxers equals a new sized division.

I disagree. Amateur boxing and the Olympics comities set the precedent. They came up with Superheavyweight. Not because heavyweights were getting smaller. They were still the same size they had always been. It was because of the introduction bigger men coming into boxing in higher numbers Which was made possible because of advances in sports science.

not if you consider the “in the ring weight” is for these so called “cruiserweights”.

 

when SHW boxers turn pro, they don’t get any smaller do they?

nope. Anyone considered a SHW likely was a SHW as an amateur. And they remain SHW forever.

 

When 185lbs fighters get magically whisked to the 2000s to fight 240lbs ones they don't get any bigger, do they?

If a 140lber tried to fight at featherweight without making the contracted weight they wouldn't be eligible. If a 340lber tried to fight a 210lber there'd be no issue, because Heavyweight is an open division. This can't exactly be made any clearer without resorting to Spot the Dog type language.

 

it isn’t in the Amateurs. When the SHW amateurs turn pro they don’t stop being SHWs.

when science allows 400lb fighters to dominate a top division, Amateur boxing will have created a Jumbo Weight class. Yet you would happily have both the SHW and JW guys all fight in the same pro division?

 

Usyk is going to look human against everyone he fights at Heavyweight. Just like Tyson did. It's tough to always fight bigger guys. Tyson was only 5'10.

 

Personally no. But that's neither here nor there in this thread unless you're arguing that Marciano shouldn't be compared to modern HWs or SHWs or whatever you want to call them.

What's your actual argument here anyway?

 

They didn't get the name wrong, you are just willfully obnoxious and obtuse about it for reasons i have already exposed. Marciano as he fought and at his time was a heavyweight and deserves to be ranked as one, reasonably highly resume wise. As he stood he wouldn't be a heavyweight today. This is fine as he's still on heavyweight lists amd isn't automatically disqualified from being matched with any Heavyweight ever in fantasy fights. I think he'd beat heavyweight contenders like Cobb, Snipes and others and i'd probably take him over champs like Berbick and others.

As for what it meant at the time when they "started this", well barely anyone cares except yourself. Pray tell what all the negative side effects are beside your own personal heavily biased discontent?

Rubbish. Primo Carnera was lineal Heavyweight champion 90 odd years ago weighing 260 odd and standing about 6'5". Your argument is absurd. So "New sized boxers equals a new sized division" again, is utter rubbish. Enough already.

You are obsessed and don't have a leg to stand on. The division is open which you cannot seem to comprehend. It was always open. Primo was a lineal champ was back when at a size virtually comparable to anyone.

The "in the ring weight" for Usyk in the Cruisers was about 208 from memory. Tyson was a bonafide Heavyweight by today's standards and would actually put on a whooping on just about every one of them as of right now and many would say ALL of them at his best. He doesn't need to fight lower to be successful.

As a matter of fact he beat plenty of big men as it was.

 

But Chok, technically they do cease being SHWs as per professional boxing weight classifications where SHW is only an informal descriptive term.

Ams to Pros can be apples to oranges across the board therefore the weight classes don’t necessarily correlate and they certainly don’t officially translate to the pros ..at least for HW.

A fighter crossing over from UFC to boxing doesn’t take his UFC weight classification with him.

I understand that you feel there should be some sort of delineation between so called HWs and SHWs, an arbitrary line drawn - but officially, there isn’t in fact any such a thing.

Personally, I feel P4P skills plummet proportionally as fighters move into and through SHW sized realm...how much bigger can they be before their net advantage bottoms out? IMO, that’s the saver to and potential ceiling for the “smaller” HW.

At this stage, Usyk may well be as small as you can go whilst still remaining viable among the current monoliths. And Fury isn’t 6’9” btw, he’s about 6’7” - at least height wise, think 1/2” taller than Terrell - if Ernie’s listed height was in fact correct itself.

On his toes and fighting tall, 6’ 2 1/2” Ali didn’t look like such a Pygmy against The Octopus.

PS - I swear, if auto correct changes Usyk to Usky one more time….turn it off you say? No, I like getting angry with it and sometimes it provides as a nice “fall guy”…