Prime Mike Tyson vs Usyk

Hard to disagree with this.

 

I think that Mike is both the most overrated and underrated fighter out there.

It really is astonishing what gets written about him.

IMHO, he gets overrated more than underrated.

Yes, he had stylistic weaknesses, just like ANY fighter does.

I think that Usyk is a better overall fighter. However, based upon styles, Mike would have been a significant favourite.

 

It would have been a very tough stylistic match up for Usyk.

The only hope that he’d have had, is if Mike had gassed out. But apart from Tokyo, that never happened.

I can’t envisage a scenario where Usyk would have taken over.

Mike didn’t need to knock Usyk out in order to have won.

On the last few of these fantasy threads, we’ve had people saying that Mike only had a 5 round window, and that after that he’d have been vulnerable. But that’s a myth. Mike proved that he could fight a fast paced fight for 12 rounds if needed.

Mike would have backed Usyk up and put him on the defensive.

 

Don’t be silly.

 

He was spent by the half way point, in a fight which wasn’t fought at a fast pace.

That’s all the proof that you need.

Now go and watch the fight against Ruddock, which was a 12 round war, which was fought at a very fast pace.

It doesn’t matter what his weight was or how he looked aesthetically.

Look at Roy vs Tarver.

Toney vs Roy.

Toney vs Tiberi.

Nothing would have helped Mike survive that night.

IMHO, if you look at things logically, the beating that Mike took in Tokyo, actually favours Mike in this fantasy fight.

It took an incredibly motivated James Douglas 10 rounds to consistently beat Mike before he succumbed.

A version of Mike who was nowhere near his best, who was gassed by the half way point.

So taking that into account, what chance would Usyk have had of stopping a 100% version of Mike, when he was less powerful than Douglas, and with nothing to have kept him at bay?

Some people here have used the Douglas fight as evidence for a Usyk win.

Whereas again, I would use it to further my argument for a win for Mike.

Mike would have crowded him and given him no time or space.

Usyk could never have picked him off in the way that Douglas did.

He hasn’t got the huge reach that Douglas had, and if was Mike at his best, fighting to his full capabilities, he wouldn’t have been the stationary target that Douglas had faced.

 

I don’t understand what you don’t buy.

Just find any other version of Mike from the 80’s or early 90’s, where he was completely spent with little head movement.

Cutting weight and looking good on the scales doesn’t mean anything.

Roy Jones looked incredible at the weigh-in for the Tarver fight.

Yet he was running on fumes in the last 3 rounds, despite the fight not being fought at a fast pace.

Nothing about Tokyo is manufactured.

He was blowing after 5 rounds and was getting jabbed to death, as he didn’t have any head movement.

Donovan Ruddock would have beaten up and knocked out the version of Mike who fought Douglas in Tokyo.

 

Nobody is hating on Usyk.

It’s just that it would have been a terrible stylistic match up for him.

The fights against Evander have no relevance here.

Usyk doesn’t fight like Evander did, and we’re looking at a version of Mike from the mid 80’s, not the mid 90’s.


Usyk’s jab would have kept Mike at bay?

Ha!

That literally made me laugh out loud.


Yes, Mike can be terribly overrated at times.

However, Usyk has absolutely nothing which would have deterred Mike from coming forward aggressively and backing him up.


Have another try.

 

Thanks for such a solid response man, one thing I realized is I really underestimated how damn big Douglas is. It's hard to have these discussions about a prime Mike, he fought in a way that just wasn't very feasible to defend against. Shelling up against Tyson won't work and its almost a certainty he will get you to the ropes. Do you think Usyk can employ a similar game plan to Tucker? it seems like the greatest deterrent against a prime mike is to literally just hold him, pick shots, and go back to the clench.

 

No worries mate.

Douglas wasn’t huge in height, but he had a great jab from a huge reach.

It deterred Mike from coming forward. And Douglas was also able to find him quite easily, as he was quite static in the fight due to having stamina issues.

There’s still people on here that think that his Tokyo performance was an excuse.

My response to that, is that even if you think that Douglas would always have been able to have beaten any version of Mike, you can see by watching the fight that Mike’s tank was empty by the mid way point. And when you take into account that the fight wasn’t fought at a fast pace, then there’s no excuses. The better fighter on the night won, but that wasn’t the version of Mike that went to war with Ruddock over 12 fast paced rounds the following year.

Regarding your great points about Tucker, it’s similar to looking at James Douglas. Although Usyk is technically better than what they both were and ranks higher on a P4P basis, he doesn’t possess their styles and attributes. He hasn’t got the height, reach or strength.

Mike would have overpowered Usyk up close. Usyk could have employed similar tactics, but it would have nullified his own offence. I just think that Mike would have backed him up straight away and kept him there.

I don’t think that Mike would have knocked him out though. I think that Mike would have beaten him on points, where Usyk would had to have covered up and fought defensively for the majority of the fight.

 

how does Usyk handle the first prime Tyson 6-4, Usyk has never tasted heat close to this

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If any fighter is being overrated on this topic it's Usyk.
Beating Curly , Larry and Moe twice doesn't a great heavyweight make.
This man has 20 total pro fights, a grand total of four , yes 1! 2! 3! 4! At heavyweight. He's done nothing but expose how weak the heavyweight division is.
In my opinion he wasn't a great cruiser weight much less a great heavyweight.
Some of you jump the gun so quickly with so many of these fighters it's ridiculous.
I doubt Usyk beats Tyson between 1990 and 1997.
Tyson absolutely would destroy Usyk early between 1985 -89.
Theirs levels in boxing. Usyk is nowhere near wear Tyson once was. Or many other heavyweights champs either.
It's the same insanity some of you were writing a few years back with your Lomachenko love affair.
Some of you wrote how he'd beat every lightweight in history........... Some of you actually wrote how easily he'd beat Duran........ Which was absolutely laughable.
Like I wrote yrs ago about Lomo.
I'll say the same thing about Usyk. "Let Usyk earn his greatness, don't just give it to him.
Usyk like Lomo has many , many holes in his game. Holes truly great fighters would've feasted on.
He isn't special at all. Just fortunate and well managed.

 

Usyk has never fought against such speed in punch combinations.
Tyson has never fought a southpaw master of angles.
I still think that peak 1988 Tyson would have won, although it would have been his toughest night up to that point. Body shots and speedkills ideology would decide.

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I favoured Mike here.

I see Usyk as a live underdog.

As I see it, the most astonishing aspect is the inequitable treatment when it comes to Tyson.

Of course ALL fighters have their vulnerabilities - but when it comes to Mike’s - there is much patching, turning a blind eye, etc.

Has there ever been a fighter with as many well advertised excuses as Mike - and with little or no consideration in kind for the opposition?

It’s quite the artificial wrench thrown into the analytics which corrupts almost every discussion re Tyson.

Usyk does appear to have some measure weakness to body shots - I’ve noted that before myself - it’s admissible, no excuses - but meanwhile the valid identification of Tyson’s weaknesses are deflected and played off as being not a true reflection of the essential Mike.

A very close to prime Tyson struggled with Tillis. In apologetic response we read Mike was just 19 yo, Mike was green, Mike had the flu/ear infection etc.

The facts were Mike was nearly 20 yo, a perceived wunderkind - Kid Dynamite. A destroyer.

Tillis was very much in his own career trough. He gave Mike a lot of trouble with movement, return fire and stoicism, not framing to merely survive but in fact win.

At the other end, we have Buster not just beating Mike, but outboxing, dismantling and destroying Tyson.

The response then?

Mike out of condition, in a bad place, no Rooney etc. Mike now the proverbial, short lived, shooting star, a career nicely cropped to optimal advantage.

Again, to the facts of the matter. Tyson’s weight was right - but here we scratch deeper, which is fine but examination not necessarily afforded to other fighters - NOT least, those opponents that Mike previously prevailed over.

Out of shape Tyson does not go 10 rounds as he did vs Douglas. Mike also doesn’t manage the scything uppercut he landed in round 8 to drop Buster.

Tyson doesn’t exist in a vacuum without considering the opposition before him. Mike didn’t just stand in the ring alone for 5 rounds and then gas for the mere effort of maintaining himself upright.

Douglas took the play away from Tyson from the outset, seriously thumping Mike at the same time - such punishment will hasten the depletion of a fighters reserves and progressively impair the intensity of his return fire.

The Page KD in sparring and its perceived ramifications are overdone. Mike was caught with a counter right and fell essentially from imbalance. He was NOT hurt. As opposed to literally unequipped, he appeared a bit lackadaisical during the brief video excerpt. On the other hand. Page was really firing..going for it.

If that was a legit KD and in any way indicative of Mike’s status come fight time - then Buster would’ve sat him down and out much earlier in the piece.

Fook me, the system just crapped on me and I lost several paragraphs (lucky for you guys, LOL), oh well, I’ll just submit this half written masterpiece anyway…hahaha

 

Well of course somethings have to be taken into consideration, I think some of what you said is a little unfair.

Tyson had only been a professional for 1 year vs Tillis, that's like bringing up Foreman struggling vs Peralta in their 1st meeting when he was still novice, Or Ali vs Banks and Cooper. It's nothing to do with Tyson getting special treatment, it's no different to Ali or Foreman struggling early in their career. Learning from that experience and improving as fighters, I don't really see the issue with that.

Tyson's life was turbulent at that time vs Douglas, clearly just looking at the fight and knowing what was going on behind the scenes at that time. Douglas fought a fine fight and deserves credit for it. But I don't see that it's biased saying that clearly Tyson wasn't on his game that night. As @Loudon pointed out Tyson was gassed after 5 rounds, that isn't Tyson's normal memo.

Plus Douglas is 6'4 with a very long reach and a ramrod jab to boot, and fights nothing like Usyk. Usyk would not be able to do what Douglas did, clearly Usyk has issues with body punches and Usyk has shown vulnerability to pressure vs Breidis, Chisora. so I think that would be more relevant here, since Tyson is a very good body puncher. And probably one of the best pressure fighters of all time.

 

I'll meet you half way & say maybe it is a story/lie.
But it is not clear that it must be: some lose weight to take an easy way out when they do not train enough.
At least they feel they will have a better chance at their normal weight.
Some do it for vanity &/or to cover the fact that they did not train enough.
If Tyson was prone to get heavier, it is not implausible-especially if he was more into grrrls &/or substances.

But maybe it was fiction, in this & so many cases there is not evidence presented to be confident in either direction.