Who is the most overrated heavyweight, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Tyson Fury, or others?

He didn’t quit at all. Ali had no energy from the outset as was evident and as Ali himself corroborated. What ever Ali did during the fight was ALL he possibly could do. Vs Holmes, round after round, Ali was stuck in a far more untenable position than he ever found himself vs Frazier but there was no quit in the man - and, repeat, Larry Holmes said this of Ali also.

 

Briggs got his shot and almost pulled an upset. To shift the argument to Lewis’ so called flaws to negate Briggs own degree of success against Lewis seems predisposed to undue dismissal of Briggs. Reaching back to Lewis’ tough duke out with Bruno some 4 1/2 years prior to discredit Lewis in order to discredit Briggs seems like another reach. Lewis himself was complimentary re Briggs, noting his punching power, hand speed (which suprises Lewis) and ability to close the distance - Lewis cited lack of endurance as Briggs’ biggest issue. In the same breath, Lewis also made the distinction that he set himself up for the power shots from McCall and Rahman, but didn’t say same re Briggs.

 

Sorry, but what has Tyson got to do with this? I’m talking the quality of Briggs in his own right in fair measure - and my last post provided Lewis’ own testimony in support of same.

I know, in the fantasy realm, easy to say Mike T quickly crushes everyone he didn’t actually face. Never mind the real life opposition Mike T was supposed to emphatically crush in his actual career but failed to do so.

 

It must be said and said emphatically holding isn't cheating unless you hit your opponent while holding him or try to break his arm while holding him.

 

Yeah, the question as to how much holding is too much is akin to asking how long is a piece of string.

Clinching/holding is legal - to a variable point (in some cases, no point at all) and that arbitrary point is when the ref in question subjectively deems it to be excessive.

Enough warnings, you should (or I should say “could” - again, it’s subject to the ref’s discretion) start seeing points deducted.

I don’t view premed punch/hold strategy as being in the true spirit of the game - godawful to watch at any rate - but in all sports many participants push the boundaries as far as officialdom will allow them.

Refs Perez and Padilla were chalk and cheese in so far as their policing of Ali’s holding went - which gave rise to two fights of completely different complexion and dynamic - SuperFight II and the Thrilla in Manila respectively - I know which fight I preferred and which fight allowed both men to fight at their uninhibited best.

 

Mark, the point was they were ALL made to measure for Mike - but, in fact, several were not - despite the most emphatic and confident predictions otherwise.

It seems many don’t take due heed of those miscalculated forecasts during Mike’s ACTUAL career - it’s easy to rinse, repeat and make those same confident picks in the fantasy realm where they obviously cannot be proven or disproven as a fact.

I won’t stray further off the main subject BUT: I know it wasn’t prime Mike but wasn’t Razor Ruddock easy to hit and not necessarily possessed of an iron chin?

 

I love how Tyson fans claim that Ali's opp weren't much really.

Let's look at Tyson's:

He barely scraped by Tillis who had lost his last three coming into the fight.

Frazier was one of the very few (only?) guys Holmes KO'd in 1.

Berbick was over 30 and had in prime age struggled with the ghost of Ali.

Smith could punch but was very limited and had lost to Frazier.

Thomas was talented but aged quickly due to drug abuse and not taking boxing seriously overall. Claims to have fought with an injured shoulder.

Tucker was perhaps Tyson's best opponent before prison, but a thin resume and had a confirmed hand injury in the fight.

Tubbs was so overweight for the fight that he was fined for it.

Holmes was 38 and rusty and had not convincingly beat a good fighter for six years arguably.

Spinks was 32, a natural LHW and had had long standing problems with his knees.

Ruddock was arguably also one of Tyson's best opponents, but easily taken out by Lewis soon after facing Tyson.

Etc.


You can do this to most fighters, and Tyson, to his credit, fought most of the relevant guys of the mid- and late 80's. But Ali did so even more and for a decade longer. You can't in good conscience nitpick yourself past almost all the relevant fighters over 15 years. So it's hard to overrate Ali at HW. Any reasonable fan would at least give him a solid case for nr. 1 even if they have Louis as the top HW. Tyson and Fury have much more room for being overrated.

Maybe casuals think Ali is easily the best p4p ever and that would be overrating him. But I wonder if casuals today actually wouldn't rank Tyson and Fury higher than Ali.

 

That actually reads as very wise guidance and opponent selection for puncher types.

As early as 1970, Foreman looked to be establishing very sound fundamentals - see the Chuvalo fight.

The Peralfa bouts came before and after the Chuvalo fight - Peralta being the very type of challenging opponent I think you are taking about - well removed from Foreman’s comfort zone.

I don’t know that Peralta was necessarily chosen to aid Foreman’s development but they were both tough fights, basically 10 rounds each and George apparently saw improvement from the first fight to the later rematch. Invaluable experience.

But from then on, “silly” George, with his incredible punch, was basically bowling everyone over, maybe 1 - 3 rounds on average.

By the time of Zaire, Foreman’s actual time in the ring over the last 2 years was shockingly low - and psychologically, Foreman literally figured NO man could survive more than a few rounds against him anyway.

So, the phenomena and by products of being a super puncher can, in and of itself, be ironically detrimental in the long run for the puncher in question.

A Peralta type opponent and extended duration just a few fights before Zaire would’ve likely stood Foreman in somewhat better stead. The reality was that his last three fights, two against top liners, didn’t even total 5 rounds.

The beauty of a fighter like Liston was that he had the ability to punch on and punch out over an abbreviated number of rounds as and when appropriate - but then he could also go 12 rounds and outbox an expressly evasive opponent.

But even Liston, by virtue of his power, got bitten by a relative low number of rounds in the 2 years prior to facing Ali - Sonny had the tools for a longer fight but his endurance was far from fine tumed come the time of his match vs Ali in Miami 1964.

 

Mike tyson most overrated athlete ever

 

The Censuses give contradicting records.
The 1950 Census lists Liston as 27 years old, making him 41 for the first Ali fight.

HWs were smaller when Patterson became champ. Don't get me wrong, he was a good boxer, but he wouldn't be champ in an era like the 90s. Ali's size gave him an advantage over an injured Patterson.

Depends on who's ref.

Frazier had the issue since the late 60s, but it gradually got worse to the point he was almost completely blind in that eye.

No disrespect, but did you start watching boxing yesterday ?!?
Of course there are lucky punches, even ATGs have lost matches against an inferior boxer who caught a lucky punch.

Moorer became champ due to circumstances. He was a good boxer, but not the best the division had to offer. And he dominated Foreman.
And like I already mentioned, Foreman got beat by every good boxer he faced in the 90s.

Skill has got nothing to do with one's record. Skill is all about boxing ability, meaning knowing how to punch correctly, how to parry or dodge a jab, how to counter-punch, how to do a pull counter etc.
You learn all those things, you don't get born with them.

Norton and Shavers for example were never champs, yet they are more well known than boxers who became champs (for example Johanssen, Moorer, Bruno, etc), simply cause they faced Ali.

I re-watched the Shavers fight about a month or so ago and I clearly gave him the win vs Ali.
Can't remember the Jones fight exactly, it was very close and I'll have to re-watch that too.

Patterson was injured for the first fight, which was even proven by the fact that he did much better in their second fight, despite being way older and clearly past his prime.

 

Ali was older too when he whupped Patterson for the second time and the cards were 6-1, 3-3, and 4-2 when Patterson's left eye was so busted up the fight was stopped in the seventh round.

Ironically, it is a testament to Ali's greatness that a seventh round stoppage against a International Boxing Hall Of Fame inductee is a blemish on his resume.

 

Tyson is so overrated by casual. So I gotta go with Mike

 

If Tyson Fury was truly as good as his fan boys rate him he would be doing everything be could to become undisputed including waiting a few extra months to fight the Ukrainian.