Is Canelo the Greatest Super Middleweight of all time?

Well that's the whole point of this thread isn't it ? were judging it primarily on their resume at Super Middleweight. The general perception at the time is that James Toney was the number 1 man at Super Middleweight and in his prime, if he had weight issues going into the Roy Jones Jr well that's tough and on him no excuses. The fact is Roy Jones beat the number 1 man at Super Middleweight, in what most people considered a 50/50 fight and we judge the win based on that no excuses.

What was the general perception of Golovkin at the time ? a 40 year old past it fighter who didn't look impressive vs Murata, Derevyanchenko. Had only 4 fights in 4 years and Canelo was heavily favoured to beat Golovkin who had never even fought at Super Middleweight.

So no i don't rate Canelo's win over Golovkin as high as Jones over Toney not even close.

Jones was in his prime compared to Golovkin who had 4 fights in 4 years and was 40 years old so there is a slight difference.

Don't take everything i say literally basically i was implying Jones schooled Toney easily which he did in the vain of 12-0, 11-1.

Again there is a difference Canelo was heavily favoured to beat Golovkin, and didn't look that impressive as he faded in the last 4 or 5 rounds. And if you want to use judges scorecards well 2 judges had it 115-113 x2 so clearly it wasn't that one sided in judges eyes, and Jones's performance over Toney was much more emphatic and impressive.

Sorry but i don't agree Toney had shown no signs of any wear or tear like your claiming, or having any weight problems when he brutally knocked Charles Williams prior to his fight with Jones. Infact most people believe Super Middleweight was Toney's best weight class.

It's pretty simple Roy Jones beat the best Super Middleweight in the world at the time, Canelo beat a past it 40 year old Middleweight moving up to Super Middleweight.

 

The great win over Barkley was just under 2 years before he fought Roy.

In early 1994, James looked in fantastic shape when he breezed through a very good fighter in Tim Littles, in just 3 rounds.

Just before he fought Roy, he also beat Charles Williams.

If you look at the weigh-in weights, he came in just under 168 for Littles, 168 for Williams, and 167 for Roy.

His weight issues against Roy has always caused me confusion.

James had a normal pattern of, if he respected his opponent, like Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum and Tim Littles etc, then he got himself into very good-great condition. But if he didn’t, he just went through the motions like he did against Dave Tiberi etc.

So why was he so out of shape against Roy?

It’s very intriguing.

Did he not respect Roy?

Did he think that Roy was overrated and it was going to be an easy fight?

Did he purposely do it, so he could have a built in excuse for if he lost?

I’d love to know the answers to those questions.

It doesn’t make sense why he was so overweight, after the fight had been signed.

We know that afterwards, he was so incensed that he’d been embarrassed by Roy, that he turned on Jackie Kallen, stating that she’d forced him to take the fight. Whereas according to her, he was fine when they signed, and he was convinced that he was going to win.

The weight issue was terrible, because it also robbed Roy too.

Personally, I don’t think a fully fit version of James would have fared any better, simply because it wasn’t a high paced fight, and he just couldn’t handle Roy’s speed and unorthodox style.

I also have to question why/how he made 167, which was a full pound under the 168 limit.

 

The thing is alot is made about the weight and yes Toney did have weight problems, but Jones was also simply awesome that night. And lets be real no version of Toney beats a prime Roy Jones. So i think it was a combination of how good Jones was that night and the weight, but again it's speculation how much the weight effected Toney because Jones was too good that night.

I wasn't that impressed with Golovkin either vs Canelo, again Toney had the fastest Super Middleweight and maybe the most talented Super Middleweight in history infront of him. I still would favour Toney over the gunshy lackluster Golovkin who fought Canelo.

That's speculation though me personally i wouldn't of favoured Golovkin over Ward at 168, again whether or not people believed Golovkin would or wouldn't beat Ward is irrelevant. Because the fact is Golovkin had no resume at Super Middleweight, and again your judging the Golovkin from years ago and not the current 40 year old version who fought Canelo. And that's what were discussing whether or not a 40 year old Golovkin is a better win than a 44-0 26 year old James Toney, and well i think the answer is pretty clear but you seem to have different thought on the matter. So that's entirely up to you what you think i'm not trying to change your mind but i just don't agree with your logic.

 

I don’t think that any knowledgeable fan genuinely thought that GGG would have destroyed Andre Ward at SMW.

 

Who’s lying?

What are you referring to?

 

Yes but Calzaghe overall had more quality wins and has the longevity on his side.

Again that's up for you to decide though everyone has their own opinion on it.

 

Hi mate, what’s your opinion on James’ weight issues for Roy?

Why was he so out of shape?

He must have seen Roy’s fights with Castro, Hopkins, Tate and Malinga etc.

He must have seen Roy as a threat.

 

I keep telling you that I’m Joe’s biggest critic.

You don’t need to tell me this.

His ten year WBO reign was a joke for a guy of his talent.

However, he was still a great fighter, and there’s many factors to consider when trying to establish who the GOAT is, especially from a weight which was mainly used as a stepping stone, where it’s only around 35 years old.

 

We’ve already discussed why:

1. Benavidas hasn’t done anything.

2. Other fighters have many more title defences, from much longer reigns.

3. In terms of ability, Canelo is not the clear cut best fighter in the divisions history.

 

I have no idea TBH do you remember the interview with both fighters ? When Jones says his famous line "I'm your huckleberry"

Lampley said Toney closed his training camp or words to that effect ? Toney seemed to brush it off, but looking back with hindsight. There was obvious problems behind the scenes with his training.

But as I said to @shadow111 Toney prior to the Jones fight, had shown no signs of struggling at the weight. He had some of his best performances there, including the highlight reel KO over Williams which was prior to the fight with Jones.

Overall I still think Jones was just too good that night, and whilst the weight did effect Toney. I think more credit should be given to Jones for a boxing masterclass, over P4P top 3 fighter and number 1 Super Middleweight in the world at that time.