Was Ali really still a great fighter when he beat Earnie Shavers?

I just did as you asked. Your ability to break down what you watched is atrocious.

-You counted half assed arm punches and slaps from Shavers as "body punches" that had hardly any weight or snap behind them. Shavers only threw those to keep Ali honest and to hope the judges saw him staying busy.

-You counted some punches that Ali rolled with as being flush shots Shavers landed. In total, Shavers landed maybe 3-4 solid blows. Ali saw many of his bombs coming and either rolled with them, they only grazed Ali, or they were smothered.

-Shavers was the aggressor but you cannot win a round based on aggression if you are missing by a mile several times. That is ineffective aggression and Shavers was guilty of doing this in SEVERAL fights (not properly setting up his punches or timing the opponent). He was desperate for a KO and started slipping back to his old habits. He missed more than he landed.

-In contrast, Ali not only landed more flush power punches, he also had a higher connect percentage (punches thrown vs landed) which goes a long way in determining who won the round. Shavers threw more but landed less, and Shavers also got countered multiple times.

-Ali adjusted, Shavers didn't. The same 1-2 combo Shavers had success with (the hardest shots he landed in the 15th) he was unable to land again because Ali got the timing down and evaded them. Ali also no longer got hit by the wild left hook Shavers caught him with which is very noteworthy given that Ali was often easily caught by hooks. The fact an exhausted, past his prime Ali could make adjustments in the final round and dodge punches he often has trouble dealing with is very impressive. Shavers countered Ali once, but Ali countered Shavers at least 3-4x.

-You either didn't see or didn't count any of Ali's uppercuts or inside fighting. The left uppercut landed multiple times buzzing Shavers and stopping him in his tracks. Ali landed multiple flurries while Shavers was usually only able to land 1 punch at a time. This also helps in winning rounds.

-Finishing a round strong, with your opponents legs becoming wobbly and backing them up to the ropes as you nail them multiple times cannot be ignored because you have an agenda. Not one person was saying Ali won solely because of the last 30 seconds, but how you finish a round does affect the scoring. This was exactly why Holmes and Ali beats Norton because they finished strong.

Nothing about this round was even. Ali outlanded Shavers, landed more combinations, made Shavers miss multiple times, made adjustments, had better defense, countered more, hurt Shavers badly, and was kicking his ass at the end of the round with Shavers unable to respond. Shavers only had 3 good moments and the rest of the round he was getting schooled or flailing away.

 

the fight was even

 

LOL!

Do you buy into the claims Ali sorta ducked a rematch with Georgie Porgie? Quite a few unbiased top shelf posters, some of whom adored Ali have put forward a yes over the years. Posters who really take care in what they post.

I'm inclined to go along. It fits into some discussions we've had in here per Ali's victory over Foreman being a lot more grueling than it actually looked.

 

I’ll defer to your take JT - I’m not fully conversant with the behind the scenes logistics as at that time to make a fully informed call.

Can you flesh out more of what you know if that’s okay? Like, say, how much did George push for a rematch, Ali’s answer to same etc?

The Zaire fight was definitely a finely balanced fight even though it resulted in resolute victory.

Ali not only had to do what he did to the letter, but George also had to play his role in perfect complement. Ali was fatiguing fast also - which caused him to step it up and put Foreman out.

Before the fight, I really think Ali would’ve realistically entertained the possibility of defeat, but he managed whatever apprehensions he might’ve had and proceeded with what really amounted to his own, necessarily positive affirmations.

Also, the level of Ali’s psychological warfare correlated with the level of threat he saw in his opponent - and we know he stuck it big time to George before and during the fight to put Foreman off his game. It seemed, as far as Ali was concerned, this was ALL (mental and physical) necessary to set up victory - not just ballyhoo for the fight.

A very, very tough fight and one which Ali could only be worse for and physically degraded by (in terms of punishment) by the experience. At the time of the actual fight, I think Ali could’ve beaten George whatever strategy Foreman himself employed. Ali was in tremendous shape and very on point.

But after the fact of the fight with the heavy toll exacted and Ali only being older again, I could definitely see Ali not wanting to revisit the 8 years younger Foreman again - even though he could’ve perhaps beaten George again if they rematched not too long after Zaire.

It might’ve been as if Ali treated Foreman as a one off, huge mountain to climb, not a guy he’d want to engage in a series of fights. A case of performing the sufficiently satisfying, isolated miracle, knocking George over and getting on with business elsewhere as the new Champ.

Was it Shavers or someone else that Ali allegedly asked to remove Ken Norton from the picture, Ali really not wanting to have to face Ken again? Not sure.

Anyway, Ali was human and getting on in years and had paid so many dues already, I guess at some point a path of lesser resistance would be more than tempting and potentially, side stepping George would allow him to at least hold on to the title for longer - the title he put so much effort into regaining (including reversal of all defeats).

 

Yeah you could argue Foreman deserved a rematch. He was an outstanding contender for years and even won the NABF belt when he rematched Frazier which technically made him the mandatory. However, Ali owed the sport nothing by that point. He already had a hall of Fame worthy career before Zaire and as you said, paid his dues facing nearly every noteworthy guy of his era. I don't blame Ali for not wanting to fight that monster again.

Ali was already slowing down before Zaire and by the late 70's he was getting hit too much and his body began to break down. He couldn't stick and move anymore, and the ol rope a dope, clinch, counter strategy wouldn't work either, Foreman would have adjusted for sure and wouldn't punch himself out again (which means the chances of Ali stopping him are pretty low given Foreman's iron chin and the fact Ali needed to tire him out to chop him down before). Even if Ali won, what would be the cost? More bruised ribs from vicious body shots, peeing blood, concussions from heavy bombs to the jaw, the risk of a detached retina, etc? The juice wouldn't even be worth the squeeze even if someone offered plenty of money. Fighting a young devastating hitter like that is like getting jumped by multiple guys with bats, you're gonna be in pain and sore even if you survive.

 

George was pushing like crazy, it was a real fixation. I believe it was Foreman that Ali asked to rid him of Norton.

Ali rang Foreman and demanded he rehire Sadler in order to get a rematch, Foreman said no and Ali said well no rematch. Of course Sadler was one of the guys Foreman was most disappointed with concerning their actual fight.

There was a lot of talk that the Ali camp knew a combination of events came together in Zaire and that they wouldn't be repeated (plus Foreman would be acclimatized to rope a dope) thus making the rematch a tougher proposition given Ali was declining.

So my take is that Ali was never going to give him a rematch willingly and was waiting it out until he absolutely had to. I believe Ali went thru hell winning that fight and we also know that he had whipped himself into sensational shape, shape that we never saw again. Ali himself apparently said he was starting to prepare for a rematch when Foreman signed to fight Young and got himself beaten.

So that's my current take after a rethink and recheck of some facts. I'm reasonably confident in it.

 

I remember reading an interview with Shavers once where he said that a hurt opponent is a dangerous one cause he's likely to go all out, so Shavers was careful in such situations. This reasoning sounds very dumb to me, but it might explain why Shavers never immediately followed up with shots after he landed clean on Ali.
It also make me think that if someone like Mike Tyson would land something similar on Ali, Ali'd be toast, Mike would follow up with combos and knock Ali the **** out.
Shavers on the other hand mostly threw 1 big punch at a time, he was too limited as a boxer.

 

For me, Muhammad Ali was a great fighter until the rematch with Leon Spinks, and after that he was not.

 

Agreed, those punches did not do much damage, but they did land.
IF we're only to count punches that did damage, than Ali won just 1 round in the entire fight, since most of his punches were tappy taps or hit Shavers's guard.

I already said that Shavers merely grazed Ali with some of his punches, but again, they did land.

You can win the round based on aggression (even though you land a small percentage) when your opponent ain't landing **** in return.

Ali pretty much didn't land **** except for the last 20 seconds of the fight.
A power punch is a punch with proper force and bodyweight behind it, like the one Shavers landed on round 2 (a poster provided a link for it). Ali mostly landed arm punches, and the bast majority of them didn't do any damage whatsoever and/or made contact with Shavers's guard.

Those uppercuts only landed clean in the last 20 seconds. Until then, they hit Shaver's guard or missed alltogether.

To me it looked like he didn't land anything significant until he had that flurry in the final 20 seconds.

It is not fair to be awarded a round solely on the base that you finished strong. That's only 20% of the rounds, so if your opponent won the other 80% of it, why should it be awarded to you !?
This is how SRL stole rounds he didn't deserve from Hagler.

But that's the thing, Ali did not land, he mostly hit Shavers's guard.

 

Ali was dead tired and battered all over the place in the 15th, he hurt Shavers then rallied at the end of that round.

 

Ali was taking heavy shots flush, no way he landed more shots than Shavers in the 15th, only decent punches Ali landed were during his rally at the end of that round all his other punches wre arms punches, he was dead tired.

 

I can't help if if you need to see an eye doctor.

More than half a dozen posters are looking at the exact same footage disagreeing with you. Ali landed several flush punches and made Shavers head bounce around like a pinball. I broke everything down for you in a clear and concise way and you're still arguing so I'm not going to bother responding anymore.

 

He did. Ali not only landed more, he had a higher connect %.

 

But he only landed those clean punches towards the end of the round.

 

Muhammad Ali was one fight away from losing his title against unheralded Leon Spinks on Feb 15 1978. His greatness had left him at that point in time, he was ready for the taking.