Sonny Liston's standing as an ATG if he got his title shot earlier?

It was a joke, even for such a devoted Williams fan, trust me

 

If you don't, your status as top 2 poster here is revoked.

 

This hits closest I think. Liston is one of those whose ranking is almost irrespective of his championship reign, a bit of an anomaly in the more modern era. Sure, he gets credit for dribbling Patterson off the canvas like a basketball but it's his march to the title as much as anything else that gave him that fearsome aura.

And really, who else was there for him to beat in title defenses that he hadn't already on the way up?

 

I think that Sonny Liston would have bolstered his standing as an all time great had he had been granted a title shot against either Ingo or Floyd Patterson, let's say around 1959 or 1960. Liston's title reign would have been longer and we would have seen him in action against top challengers of his title reign. Possibly against challengers like Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, a rematch against Eddie Machen, maybe even Ernie Terrell.

 

Most people would rank him higher. The criticism I see the most often was that he only defended his title once.
Having held on to the title for 5-6 years would automatically make him a top 10 ATG for most people. I already have him there anyway.

 

…As only you can

 

I have him quite barely out of the top 10, but I think beating both Floyd and Ingo in what I imagine would have been resounding fashion would have easily catapulted him into the Elite of the Elite. Not quite top 5 (even then I couldn't place him over Holy, Lewis, Holmes, Ali, and Louis), but wiping the floor with those two champions would have put him a bit above, perhaps, Frazier.

 

We should first look at the facts.

by 1963, Sonny had done such a dominating job on the top fighters of the day that it’s easy to assume he was an uncrowned dominant champion throughout the 1950s or something.


In truth, Liston probably only fought maybe two rated HWs over the entire '50s, and didn't fight a top 5 contender until 1960.


From Time Magazine:

"Whatever his connections, many boxing buffs see Liston as the U.S.'s most promising challenger for Sweden's Johansson, even though Liston has so far fought only second-raters."

-August 1959 (right after Liston had KO'd Nino Valdes).

so Liston really was not avoided that long. Sonny hit the ratings in 58' for winning 7 fights against unrated fighters who had all lost their previous fight.

could he have fought the champion this year? Probably not.

59' was the year sonny started fighting rated fighters but ingo quite rightly went ahead of him for iceing an unbeaten machen, the #1 challenger at time.

It wasnt until 1960 where Liston was facing fighters rated above him in the ratings anyway.

So I don’t think Sonny could have had a title fight before 1960.

 

For me prime Liston is in the Top 3-8 h2h of all time. Although he didn't had a great career, which kinda ended eventually by young Ali. If he started boxing earlier i think he would have been champion from 56-64. Sure this wasn't the most competitive time period in boxing, but kinda comparable to Holmes title reign.

 

I think Sonny started early enough, the problem was young Liston was a pro for just 31 or so months before his incarceration.

He was absent from the ring for 22 or so months... which would be like starting all over from scratch in 1958.

So Liston really only got his start in 1958. Just starting out. It took a bit to get going. I don’t think you can say he had yet worked up into a real prime without signature wins.


but by fight 8, just eleven months into his relaunch, Sonny is making the ratings.

He’s literally 8-0 at this point. Who is ready for a title at 8-0? This is Leon Spinks territory.

 

Choklab, Wasn't Sonny Liston incarcerated in 1957 for putting a policeman upside down in a dumpster located in an alley?

 

It would’ve hurt Patterson more than it would’ve helped Liston.

 

Yes I believe the cop was found upside down in a trash can.

Liston lost the whole of 1957 because of this and most of 1956.

Sonny had last fought in March 1956 then never appeared in a ring again until January 1958.

in 1961 Sonny was suspended for most of the year for being arrested on the bizarre charge of impersonating a policeman in order to pick up women.

 

That was revoked eons ago - not that it ever got there.

I have a “rap sheet” now. Street cred.

I’m freelancing at this present time. A soldier of fortune.

Okay, this is what I have so far.

Cleve had an amazing physique, huge arms, pecs, shoulders that went forever, etc. (of course, I’m saving “you know who” the trouble of asserting same under pretence).

Even Liston, a fully self secure man’s man,(ask Geraldine) said Big Cat even had muscles in or coming out of his eyes (actually sounded like Sonny said a** on the old clip but it was “eyes” - when Sonny said this, he was in the presence of a man of the cloth after all - see, there was GOOD in Sonny).

Of course Williams had a punch that could knock down the walls of holy cities (again, see iron chinned Sonny who, after tasting Williams’ power, thought the Big Cat was actually going to KO him in their first fight).

Their second fight was half a step back for Cleve…no matter, sometimes step backs are necessary to accomodate multi steps forward next time around - which I think Williams’ was on the precipice of and would’ve proven same had he engaged Liston a third time.

The first two fights were “battles”. The third and final “battle” would round off the war (WWIII) that started with the their first fight.

When the smoke finally cleared, though beaten in the first two campaigns, it would only be Cleve left standing in the ONE that really mattered.

I’m pretty sure I PM’d my account details to you previously. You insisted on a “performance” pay rate. Well, I think I haven’t done too badly, even if I do say so myself - and I do say so. Thanks in anticipation.

 

Lol. Zora Folley is above the Machen win. And to be fair so is Patterson and Williams.