Sonny Liston's standing as an ATG if he got his title shot earlier?

Perhaps not Williams.

 

Oh so what’s his best win? It’s still a C grade HW. ATG Cleveland Williams or Monster Folley? What a force. Or is his best win the most fragile and one of the most undersized protected champions in history who defended his title against a debuting fighter? Floyd was a great man not a great boxer. Sonny so good he almost fouled out in frustration chasing Machen…

 

I don’t agree with your H2H assessing of Liston but I reckon your on the money with the rest.

 

I agree. He walked through Folley and Patterson. Not so much Williams.

Excellent observation Chok!

 

It’s close but you may be right. But folley is definitely ahead of machen in my opinion.

 

Yes and no. Liston would have destroyed every fighter Patterson faced and increased his notoriety

 

ok this works. You’ve retained your mark. Now how much do I owe you again?

 

He walked through Williams as well.

 

Well, there are also the arrears for all the pro Williams posts previously provided that you’ve allowed to accumulate….….okay, we’ll start afresh, that last post is on me….no more freebies though…..

 

Yeah, Sonny demolished Williams. And in some style.

They say Foley put up more of a fight.

 

Most fragile? Again, WHO saw Patterson off as easily and comprehensively as Liston did?

Yes, Sonny was so good as to clearly outbox, over 12 full rounds, a fighter (none too shabby a boxer himself) who was FAR more focused on running than fighting.

Why do you think Machen ran? That’s right. If he’d properly engaged Liston there was a good chance he would’ve been KO’d over a much shorter route. Liston was for real. Machen knew it.

And let’s preempt the Ingo analogy. Ingo was an unknown quantity who Machen engaged far more aggressively.

If Machen had fought Liston thusly, Sonny would’ve put him out also.

Johansson, while happy to promote some post title Liston fights in Sweden, made it clear he didn’t want to fight Liston either.

Henry Cooper’s manager Jim Wicks also didn’t want his fighter going anywhere near Sonny.

Why such express avoidance? Maybe because they knew enough to appreciate the great fighter that Liston was.

Oh, and old Liston’s 1968 outboxing and ultimate stoppage of young, durable and well skilled 6’3”, 215 lb Henry Clark was very impressive also. Clark was touted as having excellent potential as at that time.

 

I am not so sure about this.

If you watch the fight Eddie gets banjoed while he’s still having a look at Ingo. Machen was not unloading at all.

The pair were just sparring until a blinding right hand nearly put Eddie through the mat. Machen dropped like a stone.

 

Thanks Choklab, I did not know about the later charge in 1961.

 

Probably no different tbh.

He was seen as being ducked by the champ, and obliterated him when he got his shot.

A win over Ingo looks good though, but chances are his resume finishes the same.

Obviously still loses to Ali.

 

And what do you think about this scenario?
Sonny Liston gets a chance to fight for the title when he defeats Cleveland Williams 1.
In 1959, Floyd Patterson Vs Sonny Liston fought for the title instead of Ingemar Johansson.