Sonny Liston's standing as an ATG if he got his title shot earlier?

You said “before 1959.” Sonny had a very active 1958 and was surely ranked above Rademacher at some point given that Pete’s record at the end of 1958 was 0-2.

And I would say a professional with a winning record who is incarcerated rates higher than a guy who has never had so much as one professional fight, which is what Pete was when he fought Floyd.

Was Pete ever ranked as a pro?

 

Did Pete get his shot ahead of Sonny? Yes. Was Sonny active that year? Or was he rated any time before this, No he was not.

Liston certainly had a better 1958 than Radmacher did. Even so, Sonny was not active the year Pete got that unusual shot at the title August 1957.

How is Sonny getting a shot at a title while he was in prison? Sonny was not owed a title fight before he went to prison. His last bout was with Marty Marshall in 1956. He physically cannot get into a ring to fight the champion even if he was undeservedly given a shot like Pete was.

I don’t think he ever did get ranked to be honest. Pete did beat Chuvalo in 1960. He also beat Willie besmanoff. He was on the fringes. Slim pickings I know. But he beat Folley in the Amateurs. Used the Gold medal as a springboard for decent paydays.

The guy fought the champion for free. That’s how he got that chance.

 

I bet the blood was doctored as well, and the doctor lied about Liston's broken nose.

 

Broken nose can happen with a single punch thrown, why do you make such a huge deal out of it?

 

I’m not making “a huge deal out of it”. You said Liston walked through Williams. Name just one fight where one fighter has been said to walk through their, while being staggered, getting their nose broken, and admitting they were almost knocked out? I’ll wait

 

Fair enough. At least i can be confident with you that it was accidental.

Mostly fair. I guess the point is that the Williams and Patterson fights are very much different in composition despite their results. One was far more one sided than the other even if we have the opinion that Williams success is exaggerated.

 

OK, Chok, you’re moving the goalposts on me here.

I was responding to this and only this:

So the answer is:

1) Pete Rademacher fought Floyd Patterson in a title fight before 1959.

2) Sonny was ‘ever’ rated above Rademacher, and was rated above him before 1959.

I didn’t say Sonny was rated above Pete at the time Pete fought for the title — but he damned sure wasn’t rated below him, because Pete hadn’t even had one freaking professional fight when he was gifted that clown show title shot — but he was rated above him before 1959.

(And if there had been the equivalent of boxrec at the time, in those rankings Sonny would have been rated above Pete at the time Rademacher fought Floyd — in prison or not — because Rademacher wasn’t even a professional fighter.)

Carry on. I am not getting into the larger debate, but Sonny was definitely rated higher than someone who Floyd fought before 1959 because Pete was 0-2 by 1959.

 

absolutely. By 1959 Sonny was certainly rated higher than Pete.So technically you are correct.

But in 1957, when Pete got his shot, Sonny was not available to fight. Whilst in1957 Floyd fought someone who was rated below the entire division, Thing is, Sonny was absent from the division and society at that time.

 

That is what happens when you put a policeman upside down in the Dumpster, especially in 1957.

 

LOL Rich. Good one!

I mean who would’ve guessed the consequences and fall out? Sonny had to suck it and see for himself. His falling down moment as a moon lighting sanitary worker.

He thought he was performing a public service.

Legend has it, when arrested, Sonny innocently and honestly asked “I’m the bad guy?”.

I think doing same in 2022 might not see you any better off though - a good chance it could see an outcome a whole lot worse.

 

Good Ol Tea Cup Williams. Chin in the air, sloppy hooks galore almost KOing Liston. What a great fighter.

 

It’s been said before that it is nigh impossible to prove outright, deliberate “avoidance” on the part of a Champion.

There is a “method” to that apparently unrealistic embargo.

Scratching a bit deeper into that opinion: I think that sentiment calls in the warped infrastructure of boxing and its sometimes inequitable (manipulated?) rankings.

Such authorities and influenced mechanisms provide for myriad excuses as to why eligible fighter X wasn’t granted a shot (or earlier shot) while at the same time granting a shot(s) to far less eligible (and not even eligible) fighters.

As it to say you have to prove without a doubt that potential challenger, fighter X, was 100% eligible but that same burden of proof isn’t required for the Y challengers who were in fact granted title shots.

D’Amato played all the available excuses to the hilt - to rationalise not just Liston but also Machen/Folley out of their due shots.

Sure, we can cite tune ups and soft defences to rationalise the opportunities granted to the less deserving - but it doesn’t alter their status as less deserving - that it is simply “inherent”‘boxing rationale - a law that operates outside of stand alone logic and equity.

You can hug some apparently valid “technical” trees but the forest, the big picture, screamed avoidance - that forest being Floyd’s reign.

 

What a breath of fresh air you've been. I ****ing love rational thinking. Don't think of leaving anytime soon as i will track you down.

 

LOL. Cheers. I have my lucid moments….in and out all the time though. Today is a not so bad day. Who knows what tomorrow will hold though?

 

So what you are saying is that Liston was "avoided" until the last possible moment.

We are finally in 100% agreement. Beautiful!

Thank god that's over.

Now the thread premise is actually this "How much higher would public perception of Liston be if Patterson gave him a shot in 58/59 and history goes as usual with him relinquishing the title to Clay in 64?"

So the need for you to place obstacles in front of this fantasy title shot is actually abolished.

How good is that?