archie moore vs james toney.....

Look at short range how Toney puts these punches together. They are short and compact. Toney is without doubt the greater technician.

 

When was Moore out of shape, when he was approaching 50?
I do not recall this, but he had so many fights-this alone was likely enough to stay in shape.
The incredible thing is if you look at his record over approaching 30 years, he seems to have had no real period of decline!
Even though he moved up to HW later & got ancient-& all without modern training.

To me this is more impressive than a much less active fighter who went to near 50, Bernard Hopkins.
Check his record, ages, dates, quality of competition & frequency of fights on Boxrec.
One year towards the end 1959 he only had a couple fights, still as active as top level boxers today.
[url]https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/8995[/url]
Moore was a great guy, & I almost do not comprehend how he did not really decline!

 

Toney also doesn't possess the same repertoire at longer ranges though.

 

I think that point can be made. I would give a slight egde to Archie there. But my point stands, Toney the better technician on the insight with better hand speed too.

 

Go back and read the papers. He frequently fought with a paunch. Yes he fought frequently but he fought frequently 20 and 30 pounds above 175 where he was the champ. He was well into his 20s while still fighting at 160 its not like the guy turned pro at 12 and then grew into a heavyweight. Toney was fighting frequently as well but are you going to tell me that when the back of his neck looked like a pack of a hotdogs he was in shape?

 

Moore is a much more complete technician than James. Dunno how that's actually a debate here.

 

I don't think I'd agree. To be honest, I see Moore at very least matching Toney at every range and he has advantage in quite a few.

 

It is your biased opinion. To have such an opinion, to me it is clear that you have probably never boxed before. On the insight, Toney is obviously the better technician with the better handspeed. In that range, when on his game, Toney is one of the best to ever lace them up

Moore is the greater fighter.But it is wrong to conclude that just because somebody is greater he is better at everything. This is about ability. If Toney had the discipline, he would have been much greater.

 

I would then say your boxing knowledge is unfortunately a bit limited.Overglorifying past fighters is quite popular in the classic forum.

When did Moore throw combinations on the insight, with the kind hand speed and efficiency of Toney? You show me footage that he can do what Toney can on the insight.

 

Yeah, probably. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that way though and some people who agree with me are more knowledgeable than either of us.

How about you? Can you show me things Toney did that Moore wouldn't be able to replicate?

 

If you have any documentation or photos or videos showing Moore had a paunch, please send them over.
I have never seen this is the articles I read about Moore, but am open to reading them.

However I am unsure if you are correctly recalling things, in part because you have a couple details confused or unpersuasive.
Presumably you will not be threatened by me rigorously trying to get to the Truth-this is not an attack upon you.
I say this due to a recent fragile ego/meltdown when I politely differed with someone who previously seemed rational & decent.

1) It is not at unusual to be 160 when young & then what today would be a LHW with say before weigh ins.
2) He did sometimes struggle to make weight between fights-but this was because he ha grown out of being a LHW

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. Today it would be no problemo.
3) The highest weight I can find that Moore fought abouve 175 was 196.5 or 197, not 30 lbs. above it, but I am open to seeing the evidence.
4) I never would claim it is impossible to get heavy when fighting frequently, but said that doing so goes some way towards keeping in shape. Some guys successfully yo-yoed/got porky between fights, but showed up in shape. Some not...
5) Toney not only did not fight as much or frequently as Moore, but when he DID fight often, it was early in his career like most-& when he was in the lighter divisions.
When he was a CW or above, he was not fighting very often.
So it is not a case of fighting often not keeping weight down, he both let himself go & used steroids when bulking up.
6) I would never suggest that Toney with a fat neck was lean.
7) Moore seemed low body fat & very fit well above 175.
Take his HW fight against Marciano, he was 188 & looked not just not heavy, but lean.

8) In fact, here is an article from a source you will be very familiar with re: Archie's magician like ability to be & appear very fit at quite different weights.
In part this must have been due to cutting weight-but I am saying that I think you underestimate the natural size, lean body mass, he held for many years.
[url]https://www.boxing247.com/ArchieMoore.html[/url]

 

You'd simply have to be kidding.

Didn't you take aim at me some time back about always picking Hopkins in fantasy matches?

Your bias for Toney has always been obvious.

 

Im not sure why I have to reaffirm something that was well known about Moore at the time and that he was famous for.


Same day weigh ins work both ways. If you are making weight in the 150s and 160s when well into your twenties and then weighing at 200 pounds as LHW champion youve put on a ton of weight well after youve stopped growing in a era before steroids were prevalent. Moore was weighing in the 150s consistently until he was 27 years old during same day weigh ins. He won the title in 1952 weighing 172 pounds at 36 years of age same day weigh ins. 15 pounds or so for a guy nearing 40 in an era of same day weigh ins understandable. However in 1954, as champion, he weighed 190 for Bob Baker. Thats another 15 pounds and even he admitted that he was slower and his timing was off at that weight. His next fight he was so heavy that he outweighed his HW opponent Bert Whitehurst and his weight caused the NYSAC to postpone his July 14 title fight with Harold Johnson by a month in order to give him extra time to lose the weight. After he defended against Johnson he took on a Nino Valdes and his weight ballooned to 196. There were even concerns about his ability to get in shape before the fight. Thats 23 pounds over his weight for Johnson (and nearly 40 pounds over what he was weighing at 27 years old) in an era of same day weigh ins. 8 months later hes 197 for King. His next fight against Dunlap he weighed 196. I have the film of that fight and he has love handles and a paunch. For Hans Kalbfell a little over a year later he weighed 206. Thirty one pounds over the limit of the division he was champion in, 16 pounds over a weight he said he was slow and sluggish, and nearly 50 pounds over what he was weighing when he was closer to 30 than to 20. He weighed 199 for Rischer, 201 for Albright, and 206 for Besmanoff where his belly was over his waist band, and 203 for Turman. All of these bouts took place while Moore was still recognized as LHW champion. Now compare those weights with his championship weigh ins: 172, 173, 175, 173, 175, 174, 175, 173, 174, 174. Dont tell me he was just naturally heavy and somehow managed to boil down to 173 at the age of 42. The guy was consistently 20 pounds over his championship weight in an era of same day weigh ins and sometimes as much as 30 pounds. Clearly he slacked off between fights and enjoyed picking up extra fights in HW bouts because he didnt have to make weight. He consistently had love handles and sometimes wore his trunks up past his belly button. Jake LaMotta ballooned into the 180s between fights while he was a natural 168 pounder even taking into account cutting weight, he was no 180 pounder in fighting shape (and he had actually been a light heavyweight in the amateurs and his early career, where as Moore had consistently fought at or below 160 for nearly a decade. Moore was no 190/200 pounder in fighting shape either. He was able to fight fat, like Toney, because he was very relaxed in the ring and didnt waste a lot of energy. If you win the title at 36 weighing 172 in a same day weigh in and balloon to 206, 34 pounds heavier, five years later, you didnt put on 34 pounds of muscle. You didnt just grow. You got lazy and didnt train. Period. Im not underestimating anything. Thats just the way it is.

 

I have actually been picking Archie. That is the difference between me and you, I have alwaye been able to stay objective. Just because a fighter is greater, it is wrong to suggest that he is better at everything.

On the inside, Toney has the more sound technique., Crisper, shorter punches and he puts them together more effectively and with bettetr hand speed. If somebody does not agree with it, I have to question his boxingknowldege

Like Bill Miller said, Toney took from these oldtimers and improved on it. The issue is Toney stopped learning. But what he picked up, he did very good.

 

You do not have to do anything, but I am glad you took the time to say all this.
I guarantee you most do not know it; "at the time" was Ancient History.

I am not shocked he gained weight between fights, but I have not seen him paunchy in the ring, & while I welcome the visual evidence, i take your word for it. Including about what he said.

But I think you are a little bit off on how much weight he could carry-without any PEDs or modern weight training-& be in fighting shape.
Caveat: sometimes a person can be the same weight but more fat & less muscle than he was, or will be later.
But as others have observed he looked very fit at 188 vs. Rocky-not really different in body fat than Rocky, who boiled down to the same weight + 1/4 lbs...So clearly he could, & likely did, fight quite fit at a mere 2 lbs. heavier.

However I do not necessarily accept that he was lady & did not train.
He worked very hard; fought often, sometimes in a whirlwind of activity, check how many fights he had just in the year b4 facing Patterson for the title!
He-like Joe Louis in 1941-had too many enervating fights in a short period, as per the piece I hyperlinked, it drained his energy.

Now some fighters both tend to gain fat AND may have issues with food & eating.
They may work harder than most everyone who stays lean-but have trouble controlling their weight.

One more point. Tons of fighters gained a lot of weight-often mostly muscle-as their careers advanced.
Some before steroids were invented, you must know about some division hoppers who at least in terms of percentage increase "bested" Moore, Langford was one, no indication Ali used PEDs, but went from same ay LHW for the Rome Olympics to a still pretty lean 210-215 at his '60's peak-& still pretty lean.

Some of this is natural growth & maturation-& Ali had the bone structure so he could have put on more muscle if he wanted (but likely loses a bit of speed & endurance).

So Moore not ONLY was able to weigh in fit at various weights in a short time...
But sometimes was relatively pudgy, OK.
However do you think he would have been even better if he never had extra body fat?