Who is the man at heavy...Usyk or Fury?

If top 5 Whyte isn't a "quality opponent" then AJ's claim to having a "strong resume" falls apart, because not only did AJ have a war with a green Whyte, Whyte went on to beat Parker, who beat Ruiz. So the only even potentially credible wins in AJ's column at that point are a war against 39 year old Povetkin who had just been dropped by Price, and a life and death with 41 year old, 17 month inactive dethroned Wlad, both with home and A-side advantage. And on the other side of things Joshua got destroyed by 25/1 underdog fringe contender Ruiz and schooled twice by an ex-cruiser champion whose only other significant heavyweight win was an unexpectedly tough fight with Chisora, Joshua again being the A-side in all of these fights.

 

You keep proclaiming AJ has a weak chin in regards to his Ruiz fight in other threads, if Wlad couldn't stop him then what does it say about Wlads power?

They both stopped Pulev easily. How quickly they do it has no bearing on this discussion. It's boxing not a race.

You're incapable of giving credit. You're also an alt so I don't know why I'm bothering replying to you.

 

Joe Joyce

 

I don't think that Joshua has a weak chin (Whyte hurt him but didn't stop him, Povetkin hurt him but didn't stop him, 41 year old inactive Wlad dropped him hard, hurt him badly but didn't stop him) but his powers of recovery are poor and his mentality is suspect. After he got nailed on the temple against Ruiz he was compromised and Ruiz didn't let him off the hook. Wlad by contrast was too cautious and insanely tried to negotiate a decision as the B-side in Britain.

Wlad KO'd a much fresher Pulev cold with far fewer punches needed and KO'd many other durable prime heavyweights without even being very aggressive, I've not seen that kind of power from AJ. Whenever AJ has fought a decent-elite fighter under 39 (Usyk x2, Ruiz x2, Parker) he has failed to get the KO (or even score more than one KD) with the sole exception of Whyte (Joshua sparked him but so did borderline shot Povetkin and Fury).

 

Why wouldn't I talk about Waldo?

I know exactly why you want to restrict Fury's championship claim to talk of Wilder and Wilder only, but I'm not going to pretend that Düsseldorf 11-28-2015 didn't happen just because it's horribly scuppering to someone's disingenuous argument.

Fury's dethroning of Waldo (achieved on the road, no less) is, of course, highly relevant to Fury's championship status, which was only further affirmed by his comprehensive destruction of one of the two beltholders who'd emerged as the top boys in his temporary absence (again accomplished on enemy territory and in a fashion generally deemed implausible prior to the event).

Waldo had held the lineage for over six years, and he passed it directly to Fury.

Oh, yes, let's do scrutinize Joshua's championship credentials and examine the circumstances by which he acquired the belts and the level of competition faced therein.

First up is Charles Martin for the IBF, a man who was recently splattered by a pitifully faded version of the same Luis Ortiz that Wilder gets no credit for defeating when he still represented a force. Let's not even talk about the hair-raising gauntlet Martin had to run in order to acquire that vacant belt just three months prior to passing it to Joshua—that would be a touch embarrassing for all concerned, wouldn't it?

Next up, for the vacant WBA, we have the already dethroned Waldo, who no longer held any titles and hadn't fought for well over a year since being stripped of his championship by Tyson Fury. Still, if we take it for what it is, i.e. a clear step up in opposition against a depreciated but still serviceable former champion, it's a creditable bit of work for Joshua.

A close but clear victory for the WBO over Kiwi Joe, who had squeaked by Andy Ruiz to win the vacant title and quite arguably could have lost it to Hughie in his first significant defense just one bout prior to facing Joshua.

After establishing himself as Fury's official toilet seat-warmer — they call it '***ging' at British boarding schools (not speaking from experience, I should add, though @Olu G. Rotimi may know something about the practice, being a known alumni of Woodhouse Grove) — Oluwafemi powered his way past a shopworn Povetkin after dropping the majority of the first six rounds in the eyes of most observers (still a decent enough result) and split a brace of bouts with Andy Ruiz, one of which saw him suffer a humiliating beatdown and knockout loss which he cautiously avenged by a clear decision some months later.

That gives him a résumé edge over Wilder, in so much as he has a bit more of the solid matter represented in Wilder's victory over Ortiz, which is why Joshua was considered #1 and Wilder #2 in Fury's absence, though they were practically #1a and #1b, as the industry champed at the bit to see them meet in what was widely considered to be a 50/50 matchup.

It does not, by any means, constitute an eclipsing of Fury's championship credentials.

As I already stated;

Fury gained full consensus reacceptance as heavyweight champion — that is, (C), not merely the #1 ranked guy — with Las Vegas 02-22-2020.

That's not just me, friend. That was industry-wide (poor Eddie might've bitterly disputed it, but we could take that with a grain of salt).

That critical consensus received the victory over Wilder as consolidation of the prior feat of Düsseldorf 11-28-2015 and reaffirmation of its continuing validity.

The sole reason Fury isn't still occupying that distinction at the top of The Ring's heavyweight ratings is that his name is currently bigger than their title (which is not to be confused with the lineage). When they pushed him for some kind of clarification of his intentions, prior to Usyk-Joshua II, he simply gave them their belt back, knowing he would retain the WBC's handsome green strap as a bargaining chip and a layman-friendly symbol of his championship status. Given that he effectively snubbed their belt, The Ring can't exactly rate him top of the pile without undermining their brand, can they?

Let's be honest now. He tested positive in the build-up to the Christian Hammer bout and UKAD contemporaneously found the levels of offending substance consistent with his team's explanations, only going public with the result a whopping eighteen months later and seven full months after Fury had already gone on to box for the championship of the world in an entirely seperate bout that he did not test positive in the build-up to, and, coincidentally enough, at the height of a concerted media witch-hunt arising from some politically challenging utterances that had nothing to do with his prizefighting career.

He absolutely was champ.

Again, as I already pointed out;

These are the sport's time-honored traditions you're trying to undermine and redesign here. You are stubbing your toe lashing out at Mount Rushmore at this point.

You mean the test for a bout that predated Fury's championship victory over Klitschko and which UKAD sat on for approximately eighteen months? The same UKAD who 'cleared' Dillian Whyte after pressure from Hearn? The same UKAD who Conor Benn tested clean with while VADA popped him? That UKAD? A model of integrity, for sure. For sure.

Fury was undefeated. Oh, he was inactive for a spell? Big whoop. As I pointed out above, he isn't the first holder in the history of the lineage to be inactive for a similar period of time.

Again, 'the man who beat the man' has more integrity and meaning than any other measure of championship qualification in the big ol' wide world of boxing. It is the standard.

We already examined the origins of those three trinkets and the validity of the championship claim of their prior warmer.

Usyk entered the heavyweight division as a decorated thirty-something mature man, not a prospect with slight amateur background barely out of his teens. Way to compare apples and oranges.

To take a line from Arthur Lee, "you can put me down, all around, on the ground, any way you choose", but it won't mitigate my thorough, point-for-point deconstruction of your post. All you're doing is demonstrating the depths of your petty resentment and your wilful readiness to brush the sport's natural order and immemorial touchstones under the carpet in order to shabbily disguise that seething resentment in a cloak of objective truth which it does not fit.

I know you're frustrated, but, outside of advising you to take deep breaths and count to ten whenever you feel the acid rising, I can't help you with that. The truth is the truth.

Usyk needs to beat the man in order to be the man. Until he can do that, he's only the #1 contender. Fury's claim only falters if he refuses to face Usyk, but he won't. Oleksandr will get his shot at the world's heavyweight champeen next year.

 

My apologies, @BEATDOWNZ. I must now confess to an absolutely glaring flaw in my last post. Only the Lord could know what I was thinking when I typed the following...

*alumnus

 

Triggered.

 

I realize you're just defeatedly copping out at this point, but isn't triggering and being triggered the whole point of the forum? I think the academic types call it conversation.

 

Don't be silly. I'm not sifting through that! The Bible is shorter.

 

Come, friend, tl/dr is the last refuge of the dejected scoundrel. You and I both know you read my missive. But it's okay, Fury-Usyk is coming in 2023 and all questions will soon be answered—fasten your seatbelt and don't get scared now.

 

Fury pulling a decent gap now of 17 votes

Wow Fury is the comeback king!

This is how the Usyk fight goes, Usyk starting strong then fading.

 

No. I skimmed through it and had to ignore once I saw that you Still classed Tyson as lineal when he was retired/suspended. And then to claim he's still that whilst fighting the likes of Scwarhz? Come offit.

Get scared of what? If Tyson wanted Usyk he'd have fought him by now. And beating Wilder doesn't mean your the man of the division.

 

Gee willikers, despite BF24's large contingent of Fury execrators and Usykbros, there were enough straight-shooting fans of the sport hanging out here to make this transparent popularity contest backfire on the threadstarter (@catchwtboxing).

And the driver of the Fury bus, yours truly, hasn't even voted.

These desperados better rustle up some alternate accounts to swing things back their way.

It's telling that our discussion is now heading down a 'Yes, you did/No, I didn't' sidetrack.

From "I'm not sifting" to "I skimmed". You're getting there, man.

Funny, I could've sworn I saw a notification...

Addressed.

He fought Schwarz off the back of effectively rolling off the couch to take on you-know-who, then fought Wallin, navigated a hotly anticipated rematch with you-know-who, fulfilled a contractual obligation to you-know-who, then defeated his mandatory challenger.

The light workout known as Schwarz is neither here nor there. 'Bum of month' isn't a term coined for Fury.

How do you figure that?

The first chance he's had to face Usyk is now. Usyk entered the division around the back end of 2019, and his target was always Oluwafemi, because the WBO installed him as their mandatory challenger as soon as he moved up from 200. Fury was contractually tied up with Wilder for the first two years of Usyk's spell in the division, and Usyk has been contractually tied up with Oluwafemi for the last year. Usyk was offered the bout for this coming December, and he cited his need for R&R, so we'll get it in 2023.

Do you think about what you're typing, or do you just blurt it out?

Already gunned this straw man down.

 

"to make this transparent popularity contest backfire on the threadstarter"

This is very telling. Usyk is more popular than Fury for a variety of reasons, yet Fury still leads the poll. Imagine if they had equal popularity on this forum, or if their relative popularity was reversed. Fury would be leading by a landslide.

 

Yep.


For argument's sake, if Usyk were to defeat Fury when they meet next year, all the best to him, he'd have earned the right to be called the top boy in the division and would deserve a large kudos.

But, until he can do it, he's the #1 contender.

Certain parties need to can the petulance, be men and revel in Usyk's status as top challenger to a quite unusual heavyweight champion. But they won't, because they harbor very real fear that Fury will defeat Usyk, and because they are incorrigibly resentful of him.

Watch for when the fight gets signed and 'squeaky bum time' kicks in. There will be a notable shift in emphasis in their collective demeanor, from bravado to contingency—excuses will be premeditated throughout the build-up.