Who is the man at heavy...Usyk or Fury?

Funny! It seems like you are the one needing help with anger management...

 

Bryant Jennings got knocked out by Oscar Rivas and the same people hyping Ortiz don't seem to rate Rivas or feel the perceived top guys have any obligation to face him. Sorry Ortiz resume doesn't justify the hype he seems to get.

Boxing fans are wrong all the time so arguing Wilder was seen as Joshua's chief rival doesn't seem like a very good argument. Ratings are also highly subjective due to fighters not facing each other so you not thinking Dubois is in the top 10 doesn't make it objective fact. I think Dubois is likely top 10 based on ability.

 

Pianeta, Rogan and Mueller are superfluous and debatable (Pajkic/Firtha/McDerm could easily be swapped in, as could Venter who lost a MD to Mchunu).

Very questionable that Chisora is down the backend of Usyk's wins when he gave him one of his top 4 toughest and closest fights and went 12 rounds, along with being one of the bigger punchers. Whyte beat Chisora x2, once by KO, albeit as the A-side and blatantly ducked Wallin, so Chisora could plausibly be as high as 4th on Usyk's list and as low as 7th and 8th on Fury's. And he's their only mutual opponent thus far, with Fury dealing with Chisora much more easily.

Fury has two wins over the No.1 ranked heavyweight (aside from himself in the case of Wilder 2) Usyk has zero as Joshua had already been whooped by Ruiz. Fury's fought top 3 HW's on four occasions, Usyk has twice. Fury beat the man to become the man and hasn't been dethroned, whereas Wilder, Joshua and Usyk never beat the man. So the man at heavy is Fury until proven otherwise, regardless of Usyk's undisputed at cruiser, his P4P ranking and how many people feel about Fury.

 

Whyte is likely still top 10 so a decent win for Fury but I don't think he is among the divisions best. He got kayoed by a totally shot Povetkin just a few fights back.

Joshua beat Whyte pretty thoroughly so not really a war in my book.

 

If Fury fights and beats Usyk and Joyce next year, he is the fighter of the generation - theres no dispute.

 

Rivas is fighting down at bridger (next opponent rumoured to be Alen "the savage" Babic) so he's currently put himself out of the running at heavy.

The Rivas loss was bad but you can't write off a fighter's career based on a single fight and Ortiz's win over Jennings was significantly more dominant than Rivas's. Jennings had some decent wins (Perez, Fedosov, Szpilka, Liakhovich) and gave Wlad and Joyce two of their most competitive fights. Pretty much everyone regarded Ortiz's dismantling of Jennings as a major statement at the time.

Ortiz hasn't been hyped since he lost to Wilder the first time, as soon as he did he went from being an avoided killer to a hypejob bum. But we can see from various fights, especially before he turned 40 and had been KO'd once or twice, that he very likely had superior power, offensive skills and defence to the likes of Whyte (Allen) Parker (Cojanu) and Pulev (Thompson, Page). As for Dubois, Gorman's best win was either his lacklustre decision over Cojanu or his decision over a washed up Kevin Johnson: fighters not remotely close to Jennings' class, or even as good as Martin, Hammer, Scott. Dubois may well be top 10 on ability (especially at 25, 2 years after Joyce made him quit) but at this point he's only beaten guys who are proven on domestic level and not even KO'd all of them. Gorman is fighting Wardley for the British title very soon, a fight he's not favoured to win.

Boxing fans and boxing experts regarded Wilder as the biggest threat to Joshua after Fury went awol. And today Wilder may well be favoured to beat Joshua, polls on this forum suggest so anyway and Wilder's less popular than Joshua.

 

Whyte was dominating Povetkin in that fight, it was a punch from the gods that stopped him.

I'd also argue the Whyte Fury fought is a better fighter than the one AJ fought. In that fight, Whyte had literally 0 success on Fury and looked levels below Fury. Against AJ Whyte was able to get some big shots off and was hurting AJ at points.

 

I mentioned Whyte because you completely skipped over him from Wilder 3 to Chisora. I didn't have Whyte in my top 5 but officially that's where he was. He lost to Povetkin in a fight he was dominating, Povetkin still had his power, skills and heart, even though his athleticism and punch resistance had seriously declined. Whyte had beaten Parker who'd decisioned Ruiz, Takam and Hughie, Chisora x2 who'd KO'd Takam and Scott, plus Rivas who'd KO'd Jennings, so he was rightly high in Joshua's W column.

Joshua KO'd Whyte but he was hit 71 times in the process according to Compubox, got hurt in the 2nd and lost 2 rounds of the 7 contested according to a strong consensus of scorers on Eyeonthering. It was probably Joshua's 5th most punishing fight and reasonably competitive.

 

Helenius was probably extremely anxious in there with Wilder, who was apparently (no doubt in my mind) battering him in sparring. He's not a pressure fighter, overextended himself and got caught off guard by an extremely fast punch-slap. And whatever cognizance Helenius had on the floor, he would have immediately checked out mentally.

Scott has previous form for cowardice, retrospectively we know he quit against Chisora. He tried to quit against Ortiz but the referee pulled him up at 14. Later on in his career he seemed to have an instinct to hit the canvas, Thompson being another example in a fight he won! So Scott diving out of self-preservation against the hardest puncher he fought is exactly what you'd expect. And being Wilder's bff, he'd also want to boost Wilder's 1st round KO ratio and thus his ranking.

Oltmanns is what he is: a low level journeyman with a penchant for 1st round KO defeats. Many of Tyson's bum journeymen opponents (and even some considerably better than that) took dives or semi-dives out of fear. If these bums were being (explicitly) paid to lose, then Sconiers didn't get the memo. And a massive punching athletic 6'7 star amateur prospect who beat gold medallist Chakhkiev in Russia on two years experience isn't going to need a helping hand to bowl over the Jesse Oltmann's of the world.

 

Haye said that Bellew was a bigger puncher than Wlad Klitschko. Could have thrown that one in too.

 

Hard to argue with that i must say.

 

The talk about Fury being the best until proven otherwise seems pretty pointless given how infrequently he fights and how frequently he takes fights that seem like a complete waste and do little to enhance his legacy.

There are a number of guys currently who might be able to beat Fury but he realistically is unlikely to ever fight them especially if he is content to waste time on guys like Chisora and only fight once a year.