Ali of the first Frazier fight VS. These Swarmers/Punchers

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 8, 2022.


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  1. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There was a video with Muhammad Ali and Cus D'amato, where Cus went into a very good analysis how Dempsey's style wouldn't work vs Ali. And it was the way he leaned forward or words to that effect. And that Ali would be able to pepper him with the jab, now Cus may he RIP was a man who knew his boxing. So based on his well educated analysis, I'd go with Ali beating Dempsey aswell. And if I can base it on my own opinion somewhat, seeing as how Dempsey lost 19 out of 20 rounds to Tunney, and couldn't deal with his movement. That's also another reason why I don't think Dempsey beats Ali.
     
    Dynamicpuncher, Nov 9, 2022
    Dynamicpuncher, Nov 9, 2022
    #16
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  2. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I saw that too! and it did make perfect sense. Also it doesn't make sense that he'd beat Ali and couldn't corner Tunney. Even though that Dempsey wasn't the beast he was earlier the style is the same.
     
    Reinhardt, Nov 9, 2022
    Reinhardt, Nov 9, 2022
    #17
    Dynamicpuncher likes this.
  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Dempsey was aging and hadn’t fought in years by the time he fought Tunney. Does anyone really think Tunney does the same to a prime Dempsey?
     
    swagdelfadeel, Nov 9, 2022
    swagdelfadeel, Nov 9, 2022
    #18
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent and Richard M Murrieta like this.
  4. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    R
    Well I don't know Tunney was the first of his kind regarding using movement to dance around the ring, obviously Dempsey wasn't at his peak. But Dempsey had never fought anyone like Tunney, and Tunney may of been able to beat any version of Dempsey. Since he won 19 out of the 20 rounds they fought.
     
    Dynamicpuncher, Nov 9, 2022
    Dynamicpuncher, Nov 9, 2022
    #19
  5. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Prime Ali beats the hell out of all but Tyson.
    Especially Dempsey who probably wasn't the
    best heavyweight of his own era.
    Him having any chance against Ali prime
    vs Prime is simply his fans looking at
    him (Demsey) with blinders on. Theirs
    nothing on video I've seen that suggest
    he'd have a real chance against Ali.
    Nothing, but writers from his era
    that glorified his fights, while ignoring
    the probable best fighters of that era
    because of their race.
    Tyson would have the best chance of
    all of them . But he'd out last Tyson
    sweep the later rds win a ud.
     
    Flash24, Nov 9, 2022
    Flash24, Nov 9, 2022
    #20
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  6. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    You realize Dempsey was actually an inch TALLER than Frazier, and had the same reach?

    If Dempsey is crude, so is Frazier. Frazier's entire style is basically a clone of Dempsey's with only slight deviations. Frazier was superior to Dempsey in only one area, and that was his ability to cut off the ring. His head movement was more predictable than Dempsey, and he lacked Dempsey's power and infighting. Dempsey seemed to have a better chin, and was a better finisher. Their footspeed, punching technique, and other attributes are quite even and stylistically very similar.

    Willard was not the only man of size Dempsey beat, Dempsey beat plenty of big men with skill, he brutalized top contender prolific Knockout artist Fred Fulton in less than twenty seconds, KO'd another big top-heavy Carl Morris twice, and while not so skilled, Firpo remained a formidable force due to his power. these were men with significant size above most in the 70's. For more standard 70's sized heavyweights, he beat the likes of top contenders as Jack Sharkey, Gunboat Smith, Bill Brennan, both Flynns, etc. Dempsey generally did better with men larger than him than men smaller (going the distance with Gibbons for example)

    I think you kind of got lost, we are talking about the Ali of 1971 who LOST to Frazier.

    So you believe Tyson is better than Frazier, yet pick Ali to win?
     
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    #21
  7. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    Dempsey gets KO"d? Dempsey had a considerably better chin than Frazier, and had less predictable head movement, making him harder to hit.
     
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    #22
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  8. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    Cool story, but Prime Ali it has nothing to do with the topic.
     
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    #23
  9. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    The Ali who lost to Frazier beats all of them? Interesting....
     
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    #24
  10. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    Bigger hitters, who weren't as fast and were easier to hit. Frazier lacked Dempseys power, and beat this version of Ali, Dempsey's style is almost identical to Frazier, so why couldn't he do as well? Tyson's style is an even more improved version then either, and he was certainly a harder hitter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    #25
  11. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    Keep in mind Frazier fought in the same way, bobbing and weaving with his head pressed forward, and we saw how Frazier did against Ali. Ali had his chance to pepper him with his jab, and it didn't work. An old, slow, three years retired Dempsey losing to Tunney is irrelevant when discussing how Prime Dempsey does against 71' Ali.
     
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    #26
  12. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    Hardly. Dempsey's style was largely built on his footspeed. His defensive head/body movements were all complementary to his footwork. When the aging Dempsey came out of his three-year layoff to fight Tunney, his footspeed was gone. Have you watched the Tunney fights?
     
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    #27
  13. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Not a story, an opnion. FOTC Ali still beat every fighter listed...... Especially Dempsey.
     
    Flash24, Nov 9, 2022
    Flash24, Nov 9, 2022
    #28
  14. BoxingFanOfIranianDescent

    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent Tony Galento was an African American boxer. banned Full Member

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    And why do you say that? Frazier stylistically was very close to Dempsey, lacking his power. Rocky certainly had the stamina to outlast the Ali of 71' and easily the chin. Tyson probably had the most advanced style of any name mentioned and had the most power.
     
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, Nov 9, 2022
    #29
  15. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    I see some outcomes a bit differently, however I just want to contest that Dempsey hits "considerably harder" than Frazier.
    I do not think he hit at all harder, although it has dotta be close either way.
    Jack himself said Marciano hits harder, that he usually had to bludgeon an opponent for a while to get him out of there.
    Also you can say Dempsey had faster feet, but I do not see how he can be called a better in-fighter.
    Also Dempsey never threw & landed with the volume Frazier did.

    Frazier had more volume, but even in Manilla where they set a HW record for most punches thrown, & both were less able to avoid shots, Ali was not close to being KOed, but any human would be exhausted as they were from taking all those shots (most all power shots from Frazier) especially in that great heat.
    Dontchya thing it is extreme to say Ali gets Knocked out here, when Ali was never KOed, & Dempsey was at peak 187 lbs., the size of a rehydrated LHW for the last bunch of decades? :lily:
     
    Entaowed, Nov 9, 2022
    Entaowed, Nov 9, 2022
    #30
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