Ali of the first Frazier fight VS. These Swarmers/Punchers

Who did Marciano or Dempsey beat that was even close to FOTC Ali in skills, toughness, And Physical advantages.
ILL answer that for you, no one. Just because a prime fired up version of Frazier beat Ali, doesn't mean any swarmer/ slugger could. Frazier also paid dearly to get that win. Do you actually believe Dempsey or Marciano could take the pounding Frazier took? And neither of those fighters were as good as Frazier defensively, and with their head movement. Yet Ali still damn near killed him , put him in a hospital for a week.
FOTC Frazier's was a once in a career effort.
Like Duran's vs Leonard in Montreal.
Frazier was never that sharp again. To think any swarmer/ slugger without the physical ability of Frazier on that night, and especially the MIND SET , to take everything he took to get that victory. Is frankly wrong in my opinion.
Marciano may have had the mind set, but he wouldn't have the ability.
Dempsey, honestly, I don't believe he was the best heavyweight of his own era. And in my opinion severely overrated.

 

I watched Ali vs Fraizer 1 recently, it was a very competitive fight I had it 8-7 for Frazier with two 2 point rounds in there. I think people forget how much punishment Frazier had to take, and underrate his performance making excuses how Ali was rusty. Even though he'd had two fights against world class opposition in Quarry, Bonavena, and won them both impressively.

Frazier was a demon that night, relentless full of desire and it's one of the single best performances ever from any Heavyweight. And just because Frazier beat Ali that night with one of the best performances ever. Doesn't mean other swarmers would be able to replicate that legendary performance.

 

Clearly Dempsey was bothered by Tunney's style so it has some revelance, yes Dempsey was past his prime. But I'd still say its debatable even Dempsey at his absolute peak, would be able to beat Tunney. Tunney won almost every round against Dempsey in 2 fights, I'd say there is a possibility Tunney could out point a peak Dempsey.

 

That is a good point about first round KOs.
Ali also said he did not know who would win, & yeah especially after they bonded with their "fight"-& were going to tour the nation talking about racial harmony-Ali pulled a Foreman before George started to do this & was modest.

KOs are also about timing, combinations, volume, accuracy, so more early KOs may not = more power.
But of course power tends to be a big part of it...
But I am dubious about the competition Dempsey KOed-look at his [url]Box Rec record & opponents. [/url]
Many seemed mediocre at best, a good number were in their debut fight!
Even after fighting for a few years, here is a description of one of his opponents-& this guy unlike some others actually had a winning record...
"37 year old Pelkey stumbled and fell before a blow was landed. He regained his feet and immediately clinched. Dempsey landed a right and Pelkey went down for a count of six. He again rose and Dempsey landed a left hook to the jaw that knocked him out."

There are some other colorful descriptions, like:

"The only knockout of the night was scored by Jack Dempsey, a young and husky light-heavy, over Jack Downey, a seasoned veteran. The first round was a hummer, with honors about even. In the second Dempsey came up with a rush and carried Downey off his feet. A wicked stomache punch was the beginning of Downey's downfall. He staggered to the ropes and a hard right, flush to the jaw, finished the battle": The Salt Lake (Utah) Tribune.

Dempsey a LHW? And still described as "husky" despite being around 6'1"?
Boxing just was not as developed by then, I believe his stats were pumped up by facing a lot of dubious opposition.

 

Had Dempsey met anyone like Tunney before ? Who used the ring so well ? Again yes Dempsey was past his prime. But he also had issues with Tunney's style, and again I would say its debatable whether or not Dempsey could beat Tunney even at his peak. I would also say Charles style wise would still give Joe Louis problems.

 

Yep 100%

 

You do realize boxing in the 1970's was more evolved than it was in the 1910's 1920's? You do realize if can't grasp boxing evolves or the period of years? If you honestly Willard, Fulton, or Morris were as skilled as the boxers from the 1970's on then do you realize you are blocked now?

 

Lol exactly. Dempsey wasn't the best fighter of his own era. He just didn't fight any of the best black fighters doing that time frame. Even then boxing was extremely crude back then. These people who think they are boxing experts because they watched a video where clueless Burt Sugar talked about Gene Tunney could beat Lennox Lewis and they think they are boxing experts. No boxer from the Dempsey era could compete against any top level boxer from the 1960's to today. The skill level is just on a different level. Even the guys with little skill like Deontay Wilder is light years beyond anything from that time frame.

These people also act like they can't realize that there are weight classes for a reason. Marciano would be a small cruiser weight or slightly bigger light heavyweight by modern standards. There is no way he could beat Ali or any other true 200 plus pound heavyweight. Jack Dempsey was slightly bigger than Marciano.

The only thing I disagree with you on is if Ali beats Tyson then he is stopping him. If Ali could stop Foreman then he could stop Tyson, If Douglas could stop Tyson then Ali could as well.

 

Also Jack Dempsey wasn't bigger than Frazier. He was 1 inch taller but 15 pounds lighter. Also Jack Dempsey avoided fighting any top black fighters during his era. Could you imagine if Joe Frazier, Ali, George Foreman, ect ducked all of the top black fighters and just fought the white ones? They would of never lost doing their time. Also Jack Dempsey and the other fighters from that era where so unskilled compared to modern heavyweights that even a guy like Butterbean would of knocked out every fighter back then.

 

It's an opnion..... Just like yours... And who are you to decide what's relevant are not?
Everything I wrote is just as factual, and more importantly can be easily seen on film by watching the fighters themselves. Film don't lie.
What you're going on is some long dead writers opnion, and agenda. Because other than some of the Tunney fight and Firpo fight, what are you actually basing your opinion on? Just as you wrote earlier " stories ". Stories that you like.
Yet we all know Dempsey wasn't allowed to or refused to fight the best black fighters available, this is a fact that can be easily researched.
How is he the best and didn't fight everyone?
Marciano for all his short comings did fight the best of his era.
As I wrote earlier, just because Frazier on the greatest night of his career, pulled out a victory against Ali , doesn't mean every Slugger/ Swarmer had the ability to do the same thing.
Your reasoning is flawed. Just my opinion.