Will Anthony Joshua hold a title again before he retires?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Redbeard7, Nov 11, 2022.


?

Poll closed Nov 21, 2022.

  1. Yes, by hook or by crook

    42 vote(s)
    53.8%

  2. No, he's finished

    36 vote(s)
    46.2%
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  1. Finkel

    Finkel Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Good point about the trilogy. Yet another uncomfortable truth that has been conveniently brushed under the carpet over the last few years.

    Fury voluntarily chose to sign up to a trilogy fight. There was no need for him to do so as the WBC had already mandated the fight due to the controversy of the draw in WvF1.

    Wilder and Fury were happy they had found their dance partner and were publicly enjoying making Joshua wait whilst keeping his name in their mouths at every opportunity. The problem was, Fury beating Wilder so badly in WvF2 completely devalued FvW3.

    So, that's another thing showing us Undisputed was not the priority of Fury or Wilder. Only Joshua was consistently trying to make that fight.
     
    Finkel, Nov 12, 2022
    Finkel, Nov 12, 2022
    #61
    fencik45 and ad4m88 like this.
  2. ad4m88

    ad4m88 Active Member Full Member

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    Thank you someone who can actually see past the bs
     
    ad4m88, Nov 12, 2022
    ad4m88, Nov 12, 2022
    #62
    Finkel likes this.
  3. MorvidusStyle

    MorvidusStyle Boxing Addict Full Member

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    People shouldn't accuse Fury of signing a 'trilogy' fight with Wilder, implying that he wanted three Wilder fights from the beginning to avoid Joshua.

    There is no way he wanted three fights with Wilder's RH. But circumstances trapped him more or less.

    Remember Fury was robbed with a draw the first fight. That put him in a position where if he'd just taken one more fight with Wilder, he could lose once and Wilder would walk away with the belt despite losing the first fight. You can't expect Fury to win the first fight then fight again with out a rematch, especially when he could get robbed again. And Wilder likely wouldn't fight without the rematch either, so it forced three fights, basically.

    The fact Fury tried to (rightfully) get out of that trilogy fight but Finkel took them to court shows he never wanted it but was pressured by circumstances. That's all the evidence you need.

    People still defending Joshua and Hearn at this stage is incredible. They literally just excused themselves from a Fury title shot which could have turned everything around for them if they'd won, and people still don't get how protected Joshua is. Fury basically called their bluff and they backed off with ridiculous excuses (10 weeks out, we can't get the suits to work the TV deal out in a week when it's the biggest business deal of the year = laughable).

    They never wanted prime Wilder, it's plain to see. Wilder was super dangerous and after Fury I they wanted him even less. If they fight him now it's because he's much older, been stopped twice and Joshua only has a few 'big fights' left to milk.
     
    MorvidusStyle, Nov 12, 2022
    MorvidusStyle, Nov 12, 2022
    #63
    Mickc and Murderers' Row like this.
  4. BeantownAll

    BeantownAll Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I lean towards "No". Not ruling it out because Fury, Usyk, Wilder are all probably existing in the next couple of years - but I think it would also require a coupe of the up-and-comers (Jalolov, Hrgovic) to dsappoint.
     
    BeantownAll, Nov 12, 2022
    BeantownAll, Nov 12, 2022
    #64
  5. Finkel

    Finkel Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'm going to respectfully disagree.

    The problem with this argument is a trilogy fight is/was logically no insurance against being robbed three times in a row. If once, why not twice, if twice, why not three times?

    Delaying WvF2, signing with Top Rank/ESPN and building his profile in Vegas was the answer to that. That was his insurance plan against getting robbed a second time on the cards in America, not a trilogy contract.

    In fact, Fury could have fought Joshua after WvF1, it was his decision not to (the correct one, imho), but again no one forced him to sign on for a trilogy. The Trilogy was merely a way to keep building his profile before eventually re-entering negotiations, guarantee himself a third money fight, whilst also getting one over Joshua by dictating the timeline.

    As for fighting Prime Wilder. Everyone was desperate to fight Wilder, not just Fury. Just ask Whyte and Povetkin. And as pointed out already in this thread, Wilder was offered 100m, so of course Joshua wanted to fight him after WvF1. It's impossible to suggest otherwise when Wilder is on record admitting to this.

    Anyway...
    I don't think Fury is avoiding Joshua per se. I just think he is driven by money primarily: Maximising income.

    Most of his irratic moves makes sense when it's put in that context. The trouble is, his ego gets in the way because he still carries a chip on his shoulder following his (disgraceful, imho) treatment by the British press post-Klitschko; resultantly we get these petty games of one-up-man-ship involving Joshua.

    I'm sure Fury will fight Joshua eventually.
     
    Finkel, Nov 12, 2022
    Finkel, Nov 12, 2022
    #65
  6. JDub

    JDub Active Member Full Member

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    Sylvester Stallone?
     
    JDub, Nov 12, 2022
    JDub, Nov 12, 2022
    #66
    Finkel likes this.
  7. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "They were already offering Wilder a two way rematch clause end of 2018"

    That's after the first Fury fight, what about in the rest of 2018 or before?

    "Complaints that Joshua wasn't offering enough money"

    I don't think Joshua was offering anything, he's a dumb fighter who gets told what to do by his promoter. Hearn on the other hand wasn't offering 50-50 to Wilder or Fury before one of them had beaten the other.

    In late 2017/2018/early 2019 Joshua-Wilder for undisputed (the first heavyweight undisputed bout in almost 20 years) was easily the most anticipated fight in boxing, it would have been a mega money fight. Wilder didn't have Joshua's profile but he had considerable leverage in owning the final piece of the puzzle and bringing interest from the American market to undisputed. He was also a longer reigning champion than Joshua, having won the WBC in January 2015 and had made 6 defences by the end of 2017: he wasn't a Joseph Parker who'd be happy to sell his paper belt for 31%. Wlad was a bigger name than Haye in 2009-2011 and Haye a bigger name than Fury in 2013 but 50-50 offers were made because they wanted the fight (though Haye got cold feet).

    I don't think Hearn/Joshua were in any rush to make the fight for various reasons, one being Joshua's age (4 years younger than Wilder) another being how much money they were making in relatively low risk defences in Britain, another being overconfidence that they wouldn't lose to a massive underdog like Andy Ruiz. This was another reason why a 50-50 offer should have been made, the undefeated streak was not going to continue for long.
     
    Redbeard7, Nov 12, 2022
    Redbeard7, Nov 12, 2022
    #67
    Safin likes this.
  8. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "The problem with this argument is a trilogy fight is/was logically no insurance against being robbed three times in a row. If once, why not twice, if twice, why not three times?"

    Robbery wasn't the only risk. Fury could have lost the 2nd fight legitimately and having the rematch clause for a third would have given him a chance to win the belt again, as (so the argument goes) he should have after the first fight.

    "Everyone was desperate to fight Wilder, not just Fury. Just ask Whyte and Povetkin."

    Joshua represented a bigger payday (Martin) a higher profile fight and post-Joshua-Wlad there were more belts on the line (Parker). Ortiz wanted the Joshua fight for these reasons too but the roadblocks went up (similar case with Wilder-Povetkin in 2016) and he joined PBC. If Whyte had really wanted the Wilder fight he could have joined PBC but he didn't even want the Joshua rematch as he turned down several million and a title shot.

    If Joshua could stop losing fights Fury-Joshua would have happened by now. But he can't so Fury will be fighting Usyk for undisputed instead, a fight that he probably would have preferred with Joshua.
     
    Redbeard7, Nov 12, 2022
    Redbeard7, Nov 12, 2022
    #68
    Safin likes this.
  9. Finkel

    Finkel Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A chance to win the belt again? WvF2 was Fury's chance to win the belt again. And again, WvF2 was mandated, i.e. he didn't need to sign for a trilogy. Let's not suggest that it's fine for Fury to negotiate a rematch clause which he has no intention of honouring once he wins. Klitschko and then Wilder certainly show he has form for it.

    Btw, it's funny, you are now arguing that Whyte should have accepted "several million" from Joshua to rematch at the peak of both their popularities, at Wembley no less. Whereas you think Wilder was correct to keep knocking back career high pay days in magnitudes far exceeding his regular earnings. See the contradiction?

    As other posters have pointed out, Wilder just did 75k PPV against Helenius, so any assumptions of him bringing the US market to a significant degree prior to WvF1 are difficult to argue. Wilder should have grabbed that 100m with both hands and ran with it laughing. Instead, he dropped the bag, and got taken for a mug by Fury.
     
    Finkel, Nov 12, 2022
    Finkel, Nov 12, 2022
    #69
  10. hobby rider

    hobby rider Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Short Round getting pulled up on his constant contradicting nonsense dribble again.
     
    hobby rider, Nov 13, 2022
    hobby rider, Nov 13, 2022
    #70
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  11. Safin

    Safin Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Terrific posts by @Redbeard7

    One has to give him credit for his well-rationalised and logical posts.
     
    Safin, Nov 13, 2022
    Safin, Nov 13, 2022
    #71
  12. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "Let's not suggest that it's fine for Fury to negotiate a rematch clause which he has no intention of honouring once he wins."

    If Fury breaks contracts then there are consequences he must abide, I don't think he's concerned about the ethics of it. I also don't think Klitschko was concerned about how he abused his A-side advantages to a grotesque extent against Povetkin. It's a very cynical sport.

    Fury appeared to want out of the third Wilder fight but wasn't pretty much everyone saying that the third fight was unnecessary and hoping it would be called off so Fury could fight Joshua for undisputed? And ultimately Fury fought Wilder for a third time, while Joshua was losing to Usyk.

    Retrospectively team Wilder should have accepted less than 50% to fight Joshua for undisputed. But even 20% against Joshua would have been a career highest payday, obviously that isn't a good argument to take it. 50-50 was also on the table provided Wilder took care of Fury first and further built his profile while eliminating a rival of Joshua's. And as your prior post indicated, Hearn was taking about one-way rematch clauses prior to Wilder-Fury 1. Is that negotiating in good faith?

    I'm not saying that Whyte should have taken the 4-5 million or whatever was offered for the Joshua rematch but if he was confident of beating Joshua he would surely have taken it. If you asked Whyte whether he thought he'd beat Joshua he would have definitely said yes but talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words.

    Joshua's side weren't desperate for the fight because they believed they were holding more cards than they actually were, but on the other hand Wilder's side weren't desperate for it either because they believed they had a clear path to 50-50 terms. The idea that they were not very concerned about ferocious 6'7 one-punch KO artist Wilder is comical though, seeing how the tame small featherfisted Parker fight was officiated. Joshua himself admitted that he was by far the most concerned about being beaten by "that one punch".

    "Wilder just did 75k PPV against Helenius"

    Assuming that figure is accurate Wilder apparently did 3x that number in his rematch against Ortiz. Joshua-Wilder was the most anticipated fight in boxing at the time and by some distance, Wilder was bringing to the table more than the sum of his parts with the WBC belt and being a long-reigning American KO artist champion. This was not "Joshua-Martin" or "Joshua-Parker". The fight would have been enormous financially, AJ's biggest by a considerable margin.
     
    Redbeard7, Nov 13, 2022
    Redbeard7, Nov 13, 2022
    #72
  13. Mickc

    Mickc Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Enough of the BS about Wilder and Fury avoiding Joshua ! Wilder ducked Joshua to fight Fury and Joshua ducked Wilder to fight Povetkin. Haters have no problem throwing the duck word at Wilder after he refused Hearns 12 million flat fee offer to fight Joshua but also deny that Joshua ducked Wilder as they say it was a bogus 50 million offer from Wilders team. Even Joshua as well as others have stated numerous times now that the 50 million offer was legit with also 30 million for the rematch back in 2018. Joshua’s trainer Mcracken had also stated that Joshua was not ready for Wilder and also did not want him to fight Wilder in America . So which is the bigger duck ? Wilder ducking out for 12 million or Joshua ducking out for 80 million !

    https://www.*****.net/2019/02/17/anthony-joshua-deontay-wilder-guarantee/
    https://talksport.com/sport/boxing/...ntay-wilder-highlights-dillian-whyte-rematch/
    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...ant-wilder-fight-insists-warren-37216634.html
    https://boxingafrica.com/2018/12/joshua-admits-wilders-50-million-offer-was-real/
    https://www.boxingnewsonline.net/anthony-joshua-deontay-wilder-rob-mccracken/
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2022
    Mickc, Nov 13, 2022
    Mickc, Nov 13, 2022
    #73
  14. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    In my view, the idea of Wilder ducking Joshua is predicated on the idea of Wilder being a coward/lacking self-belief. But based on what we've seen from Wilder and Joshua in the last few years, everyone knows that Wilder has more self-belief (to a delusional degree perhaps) and courage than the relatively yellow Joshua.
     
    Redbeard7, Nov 13, 2022
    Redbeard7, Nov 13, 2022
    #74
    Leeroy84 and Mickc like this.
  15. Mickc

    Mickc Well-Known Member Full Member

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    There is no quit in Wilder to the point it could be seen as delusional unlike we can say for Joshua who quit on his feet against Ruiz. Wilder in the second Fury fight sacked his trainer for throwing the towel in and in the third Fury fight,fool hardy or not Wilder went out in his shield like a Boss !
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2022
    Mickc, Nov 13, 2022
    Mickc, Nov 13, 2022
    #75
    Leeroy84 likes this.
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