Gerry Cooney Vs Cleveland Williams

No but he was ranked within months of that loss.

He beat Miteff who was 7th and Daniels was ranked both times he lost to Williams. Rischer is a little controversial. He was ranked number 9 when the fight was announced "Rischer the ninth ranking heavy" Source: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VQdLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CiMNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1214,5593759

But dropped out by the time the fight happened despite not fighting in the interim. The Ring wanted Peralta in the top ten following his win over Pastrano and pushed him to number 8. Instead of knocking off number 10 who was Thad Spencer, they booted the higher ranked Rischer.

 

The men he lost to were Doug Jones (who many thought Daniels beat), Karl Mildenberger, and Zora Folley, all top contenders. Far away better than the guys beating and drawing with Lyle, Young, and Norton in their careers.

Well yes that's largely because he was never the same after losing to Williams.

"punishing Billy Daniels so much in a 10-round decision that Daniels has never been the same fighter since" https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57246919/simpsons-leader-times

This is false, he'd just beaten Billy Daniels the number one contender. He never even fought Alonzo Johnson.

Again this has to be taken in context.

Miteff had lost via half a point to George Chuvalo in his hometown where the referee failed to deduct a point for a low blow from Chuvalo (ironically Miteff was deducted a point from their first fight and lost the last round by 3 or 4 points due to scoring errors. Had that not happened he would've won their first fight as well but only got a draw) which would've given Miteff the fight.

Miteff had nearly knocked out Henry Cooper in their last round and was saved by the bell.

And a loss to the highest ranked contender not named Sonny Liston.

Again all three of these men were high ranking contenders.

Well for starters neither of them were ranked except a shot Norton, whereas Miteff and Daniels were.

Secondly the only reason they were still "winning" is because the obscure names they were facing.

Scott Ledoux was battering Kenny Norton over the top rope before the bell sounded early saving Norton from yet another brutal KO. He also dropped Lyle before losing a contreversial SD.

Lyle's wins before his fight with Cooney were against obscure names like George O'mara and Al Neumann who'd only won 12 of his last 26.

Not to mention he'd also been brutally knocked out by clubfighter Lynn Ball.

Young was 3-4 in his last 7 fights and those wins were over obscure name.

That's quite frankly ridiculous. Nobody knows any of these guys. They certainly weren't ranked when they fought Cooney and I don't think they were ever ranked in their career.

I literally had to google these guys, to find out who they were, and it seems the best of the bunch was George Chaplin who was at best top 15 very briefly..... and was going to school and had a full-time job as a Orthopedic Technician coinciding with his boxing career. Also he was at the end of his career when he lost to Cooney.

Williams has better wins than these, including guys who had either just dropped out of the rankings or who'd go on to be ranked including Terrell who after his loss went on to become a top contender within months and the best heavyweight in the mid 60s not named Muhammad Ali.

Had Williams beaten these men, Long Count, Chok, and literally everyone on ESB would accuse him of padding his record.

Well for one Williams didn't have an amateur career and was still a kid when he faced Sylvester and Bob Satterfield.

His loss to Sylvester is especially controversial seeing as the fight was stopped prematurely when Williams had mounted a comeback and chasing Jones all over the ring, to get on with the main event Walcott vs Marciano.

On top of being green for Satterfield, he hadn't trained in two weeks and took the fight last minute after Satterfield's opponent Charley Doc Williams was nowhere to be found. His manager only took the fight as a favor to the promotor.

Photo - Google Photos

The article states Satterfield is the favorite, has a huge edge in experience and that Williams had done very little training.

Even so he offered great resistance

"Satterfield was very impressed with Williams and rated him as a potential champion. "he's the first guy to hurt me with a left jab. "and the kid can hit. if he had ever nailed me he probably would have knocked me four rows back."

"he's got plenty of heart and that's the big thing. I hit him some real hard punches in the second round and he just came back"

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/510...msTGHDA4kkoOhgjXxbKfW6Ja0z5E6sKHcgwvV_TdLXYZc

"The fight was a corker while it lasted. Williams, a huge fellow and a game one won the first round with a jolting left jab -- following his pre-fight instructions perfectly."

"In the second round he stood up under two booming right hands from Satterfield."

"he tried to slug with Satterfield in the third round and landed a good left hook. He was shaken up by Satterfield's countering left hook and floored with an overhand right. He took an 8 count and got up"

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53148333/the-miami-news/

"but why didn't you stay behind that left? You had him going. In an other 3 rounds he'd have been all set up for you." Cleveland shrugged. "I thought I could knock him out Mr. Lou."

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/53148390/the-miami-news/

Cooney despite being more experienced than Williams, with an excellent amateur career hadn't even turned pro at the age Williams was when he lost to Jones and Satterfield.

 

I always got the impression some boxing people were pretty sold on Cooney. Gil Cancey raves on him during the Young fight. I remember Joe Bugner picked Gerry to beat Holmes. And both governing bodies installed Cooney as a leading contender.

Obviously Holmes was the wiser pick. He was more active. More proven. Experienced.

But some people bought into Larry beginning to slip after Renaldo decked him last time out. I would recon Gerry was given a greater chance at Larry than Dokes or Weaver might have been afforded.

Naturally Larry rightly put everything into perspective so it’s harder to see this from this side of the result..especially with Cooneys career fizzling out to ultimately never beating a good fighter.

But potentially, for a short time before he fought Holmes, the industry was looking to invest in the excitement generated by Cooney.

 

One question. which knockout win forced a title shot for Williams?

 

This is probably the worst logic I’ve ever seen from you which says a lot.

Using this logic Cooney would’ve beaten Ali, Foreman, Patterson, Marciano, etc.

 

Fantastic linked articles. Thanks Swag. I wish Satts vs Cleve was available on film.

 

I didn't want to go there but yes you're absolutely correct.

 

As do I. Williams vs Johnson is another one I'd like to see.

• 
  "Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who did to Alonzo Johnson what 29 other opponents couldn't do, said today he wants to fight 2nd ranked heavyweight Eddie Machen next. Johnson, 195, stepped into the ring last night without having been knocked out in his previous 29 fights. Williams, 210, took just two minutes and twenty six seconds to wipe that away. Johnson never landed a blow. Williams put him away with a flashing left hook." -United Press International
  

 

so what your saying is Williams was mildenburger level?

Greg was ranked. So that’s Greg and Norton compared with Daniels and Miteff?

Lyle and Young were faded but higher profile wins than the far less celebrated Daniels and Miteff.

Norton was rated number 6 by the WBC when Cooney beat him. Ken had came out of a 15 month retirement to beat the unbeaten Tex Cobb just three months after Cobb TKOd Ernie Shavers. It very much put Ken back into the title picture.

Even In 1981 Jimmy Young was seen as a viable challenger to Holmes after his 5 fight win streak after losing to Cooney. Years later when Tony Tucker was selected to meet Douglas in a vacant IBF title contest, Young was about the best thing on Tuckers Resume.

Eddie Gregg was ranked number 3 by the WBA, number 9 by the WBC when Cooney crushed him.

“I had been promised a shot at Tony Tubbs’ [WBA] title after I beat Cobb, Don King promised me that, but I never got it. I know for a fact I would have beaten Tubbs.”- Eddie Gregg.

I wish some more film of Williams actually winning by knockout was available.

But since so few of his knockouts were over people we actually heard of I am not so sure it would tell us much.

…As much as everyone wants to see what Baby Booze, Graveyard Walters and Candy “ass” McDaniels actually looked like.

 

Since when has a ko win been the requirement for a title shot?
Williams was ranked.
1961 no7
1962 no 6
1963 no 4
1964 no 4
Patterson wouldn't go near him, Ingo wouldn't go near him.
Williams was shot when he was in his prime and ranked in the top half of the top ten.
You want to penalise him for that?
In the three years he featured in the top ten Cooney fought one ranked contender, Norton no 10.
The no 1 contender in 80 ,81 was Weaver,Cooney was no 2, Holmes had already beaten Weaver and Cooney was The White Hope,in the right place at the right time.
Norton of the Cooney fight V Williams of 1963 .
Would the result be any different
than Cooney V Norton?

How about prime Williams v 38 years old Lyle?

Cooney himself later admitted he lacked confidence against Holmes because he knew he had never faced a real test.

 

Patterson was never required to go near him during the period you mentioned since (you know) Floyd was contracted to those awful rematch clauses which prevented him fighting anyone other than Ingo.

As you also know, perfectly well, there was a number of more qualified contenders than Williams in each of those years.

ditto Ingo. Tell me when Williams was a more pressing contender to Ingos title than Patterson was?

can we penalise Williams for being banned in the UK for walking out on a fight because he heard voices in his head “during his prime”?

Two contenders. Norton and Eddie Greg. Were Miteff and Daniels any better than those two?

Williams didn’t knock out Billy Daniels. Why is he going to knockout even a faded Ken Norton?

 

*Gregg was alphabet ranked, nothing more.

 

That will do won’t it?