Is Vitali Kiltschko an all time top 10 heavy weight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Nov 25, 2022.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Is Vitali Klitschko an all-time top-ten heavyweight?


    There are two ways to rate people, head-to-head matchups vs the field of ring accomplishments.

    For the purpose of this article, let's focus on ring accomplishments and use Ring Magazine, " the bible of boxing " as the standard for ranking them. You may think the heavyweights ranked contenders of modern times would wipe the ring canvas with the heavyweights ranked contenders of the 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's as they are much bigger. Like three weight classes bigger and have more defined traditional skills than history's previous giants. Or maybe you feel that the contenders 60-100 years ago were better despite glaring differences in height, weight, and reach and sometimes records of the contenders themselves. Whichever you believe, we can use ring magazine ratings and records achieved as a benchmark for history regardless of which side of the argument you are on

    Let's proceed using the standard of Ring Magazine heavyweight champions! Fighters such as Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, V. Klitschko and W Kiltscho. All accomplished heavy weights. These 12 men are who I will use for the study and should be on most top 10 heavyweights list.


    Quality of opposition fought. Based on my findings, Vitali was 8-2 against opponents ranked by Ring magazine when he fought them.

    The list does not include former champions ( Wba, Wbo, Lineal, Ibf or Wbc) such as Herrie Hide or Shannon Briggs or former contenders, only Ring Magazine contenders who were ranked when Vitali fought them.

    Unfortunately, Vitali could not have fought his brother, who often occupied the spot of Champion or the number 1 or 2 contender.


    1999 RTD by 9 Chris Byrd (#10 at Heavyweight) * shoulder injury, Later Byrd would be the number 1 ranked contender. Vitali was way up on all three on the cards.

    2003 - TKO by 6 Lennox Lewis (Champion at Heavyweight) * cuts. Again, Vitali was leading on all three cards.

    2004 - TKO8 Corrie Sanders (#3 at Heavyweight)

    2004 TKO8 Danny Williams (#9 at Heavyweight)

    2008 - RTD8 Sam Peter (#2 at Heavyweight)

    2009 - TKO9 Juan Carlos Gomez (#9 at Heavyweight)

    2009 - RTD10 Chris Arreola (#6 at Heavyweight)

    2009 - UD12 Kevin Johnson (#10 at Heavyweight)

    2011 - KO1 Odlanier Solis ( Number nine at Heavyweight)

    2011 - TKO10 Tomasz Adamek (#2 at Heavyweight)


    Here Vitali is 8-2 or 80% winning record. Vitali has a better winning percentage among ring magazine champions than Dempsey, Louis, Liston, Frazier, Ali, Holyfield, Bowe, and Lewis. Only Marciano and Holmes have a better winning percentage. Louis, Foreman, Ali, Lewis, Wlad, and Tyson have more total wins over ranked contenders. I would need to check their records on ring magazine's top contenders for the percentage of opponents beaten. The point is Vitali rates in the top ten here among Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, and W. Klitschko


    Best rounds won to rounds lost ratio: Not only in the history of heavyweights but among all boxing champions. He was towering above Ali or Holmes on the scorecards, who, in fact lost more rounds to lesser men. Vitali combined boxing ability, power, size, good footwork, smarts, defense, counterpunching, and ring generalship to the maximum by engaging his opponents and forcing them to fight on his terms. Vitali never trailed on any scorecard after three rounds and never lost more than three consensus rounds in any fight. This includes fights where he was injured ( Byrd and Chisora ). Very impressive. Rates number one overall among Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Forman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, W Klitschko.


    Never floored by a punch. Ever. Vitali and Oliver Mcall are the only two in the history of the lineal champions never to be floored by a punch, and Vitali fought plenty of punchers who landed hard to test his chin/durability such as Lewis, Hide, and Sanders. 47 pro fights. Rates above all among Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Foreman, Tyson, Hoyfleid, Bowe, Lewis, W. Klitschko. In fact this accomplishment rates very highly in all of boxing history


    One of the best knock artists of all time, with 87.23% KO ratio. It went down a little with age, and so would any champions. Better than Dempsey, Louis, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Forman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, W Klitschko. This rates number two of all time among legendary champions.


    Other feats:


    One of the most active heavyweights on the punch stats, compared to Marciano or Frazier's activity level. Punch stats are not historical records, but this is impressive, nonetheless. In boxing the guy who outlands the other wins at least 80% of the time. Often the punch stats are better than some of the official judges and can be used to sniff out bad judging. Vitali always fought men over 200 pounds and just one of his opponents had a losing record. Much like Ali he lost four years of his prime and focused on politics leaving one to wonder what else he could have done and how many more ring magazine-raked opponents he would have beaten.

    **So far, we are talking about a guy who was incredibly difficult to outbox, was never floored that had had the power and stamina to stop anyone early or late, who stood 6'7" 1/2 tall, weighed 245-250 pounds in shape, an 80" reach**

    An all-time come back. Which boxer came back four years out of the ring, and no warm-up fights not only to take his title back but to win nine title defenses in a row at age 37-41. The answer is zero. Foreman came back to be Ring Magazine champion over 40, that's it.

    Total Title Defenses.


    1. [url]Joe Loui[/url]s 27 title wins NYSAC, NBA


    2. [url]Muhammad Ali[/url] 23 title wins NYSAC, WBA, WBC


    3. [url]Wladimir Klitschko[/url] 23 title wins WBA, IBF, WBO


    4. [url]Larry Holmes[/url] 20 title wins WBC, IBF


    5A [url]Lennox Lewis[/url] 15 title wins WBA, WBC, IBF


    5.B [url]Vitali Klitschk[/url]o 15 title wins WBC, WBO


    That's it. Everyone else is lower.

    [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavyweight[/url]


    Made the hall of fame in his first year of eligibility and was the leading vote receiver in his class. A very rare honor.


    Using the above benchmarks and history and accomplishments, Vitali Klitschko is one of the top 10 all-time heavyweight champions. Since there is a lot of data here, I reserve the right to edit it, but I ask for proof of any errors found. You will get credit if you find one. The all-time head-to-rankings would be a different read, but in this man's opinion, Vitali would rate very highly there as well. I will answer anyone's questions if you have them, just keep it classy.

    -Mendoza
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2022
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  2. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  3. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    I've got him around 16,thereabouts.
    I've got respect for what they accomplished, the K brother s but their era wasn't the best and their style of fighting didn't do much for sport.

    Just my ten pence worth.
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think that the problem is that Vitali was never champion champion. He was a beltholder. The OP compares his standing as a champion with that of Joe Louis. I do not accept this is reasonable. Joe Louis was the world's heavyweight champion. He brooked no resistance. He met almost all the top contenders of his era and where he missed one they were generally #1 for weeks only.

    Vitali never beat the best fighter in the world excepting himself, although he only had one chance at it, as noted, because of his brother's success. But it was also rare for him to meet a fighter who was the best in the world excepting himself and his brother. So even if you change the rules for Vitali, his numbErs still aren't that impressive in this regard. In matching the very best competition, Vitali lacks compared to the men he would be compared to in the top ten - Louis, Marciano, Ali, these guys all met the best in the wrold excepting themselves often, and did the business. Vitali, he just didn't do that (Again, even if you change the rules to accomodate the brother problem).

    The second problem is actual wins. Who is the second best fighter Vitali beat? Sam Peter? Adamek? That is bad. If you look at the second best heavyweigh that guys like Marciano (say, Charles) and Lewis (say, Holyfield) beat, they are ATG fighters. That matters more than "rounds won ratio".

    And finally, Vitali has no generational win. He had one chance at Lewis, very difficult, and that loss shouldn't be held against him IMO, but the second heavyweight on his fought-list ranked for greatness - not h2h but atg standing at heavy - is Byrd for me. Here, we have a troubling quit job, worse, for me, than Liston's to Ali.

    In short, no. I don't personally hold Vitali within my all time top twenty for "greatness" although I think he can sensibly be argued onto that list. There is no case for Vitali being ranked top ten at heavy for me - it wouldn't make sense under any circumstances. Unless you're discussing head to head, then rank him where you like, #1 is fine with me. Most people can't consistently call what will happen in the boxing this weekend, so I can't take a list that professes to predict how all this boxing would shake out at the very highest level tht seriosuly but hold no objections.
     
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I am judging ring magazine champions. Tunney took the original lineal championship to his grave. The historical backdrop in the story is fair to all. I'm not going over fighters who quit except to say the hall of fame is full of them. If you think Vitali ducked Wald that is an opinion.

    Compare anyone to history under the same criteria as the article does. I did not go over the fights ( re-matches ) that didn't happen, only focusing on the fights that did. Vitali's record in relation to the top ten fairly raked by ring magazine is impressive, is it not?

    You can judge Ali or Louis the same way. Everyone since the 1920's. As such it's a very fair way of looking at things.
     
  6. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No. I rate Wlad in the top 10. Vitali inside top 25.
     
  7. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I would say H2H he has a good case for being in the top 10, due to his size and iron chin. But top 10 for accomplishments ? No not for me. His stats look good on the surface, but the context of the opponents he beat just isn't that impressive IMO.

    When i was having a debate last week about Golovkin being in top 10 Middleweights of all time, i noted how his best wins wasn't that impressive despite the many title defences. For me Vitali falls into that same category for me.

    Overall i'd say he deserves to be in the top 20 but definitely not top 10.
     
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  8. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    If I were doing a H2H top 10 Vitali would be in my top 5, I reckon. He's looked outstanding in most aspects and he's a guy that you can't say "oh, but he's tiny, just wait till he meets a real SHW". He's got arguably the best chin ever seen at HW and a high workrate, awkward defence and high KO ratio. He barely dropped rounds in most of his fights. In other words, he passes the eye test all the way.

    In terms of greatness, I just can't put him top 10. While he beat the brakes decisively off of every guy he met except two (both stoppages on injury) he just doesn't have the names to justify such a high ranking. And the names are what count. For what its worth he might have had Lewis on his resume if he'd gotten the rematch, but he didn't.
     
  9. Sivaro

    Sivaro Member banned Full Member

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    Vitali is without a doubt one of the greatest of all time. The ONY reason he is excluded was the fact that he did not take the belts from his brother. He would have beaten Wlad, and both of them would say as much.

    If Wlad is top 10 ATG, then the better fighter should be considered as well.

    Vitali on a H2H basis is probably number one on that list. I cannot see ANYONE steamrolling him. He was never knocked down, so a puncher is not going to beat him. He almost never lost a round, and was NEVER down on the cards in any fight. So a boxer is not going to beat him.

    He was incredibly busy and threw punches all day, so you are not going to overwhelm him
    He was huge, at 6'7 and 245 lbs. -- You cannot find anyone that would have a size of weight advantage.

    His only weakness was injury and age. He was already the world heavyweight kickboxing champ when he started boxing ( late) and despite him aging incredibly well ( as noted how old he was when regaining the title) he could injure himself out of a fight.

    But that is it......

    If it was not for the cut against Lewis , he would have won and been easily considered one of the greatest. Had he fought his brother he would have won and had just as long if not longer a reign.

    In short

    Vitali Top 3 H2H of all time ( I have him rated #1)
    Vitali just misses the top 10 of ATG, but a case can be made for it easily ( I have him in and out at #10 depending on day)
     
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  10. ChiefGego

    ChiefGego Active Member Full Member

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    Without cuts I saw him beating Lewis, but to say a loss doesn't count because it's on injuries is just stupid. A condition to decide the fight was met -> the decision was made. It's like people on here love to talk about how prime/old or what coach people had at the time and how those discredit wins. A win is a win.

    We don't live in fantasy matchup with no flaws and fully trained/always prime world.

    A measure of a good fighter is longevity, and consistency etc. Hence why I think people like Holyfield (actual heavyweight record of 27-10 if you discount the cruiser career) are HEAVILY overrated.

    Vitali is solid but i dont know about top 10. Too many good guys. Foreman, Ali, Lennox, Louis, Tyson, Holmes, Wlad, Fury (possibly), Bowe, Ibeabuchi (outboxed Byrd and outfought Tua, wasted potential imo). No particular order
     
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think, for sure, Wlad inside the top ten is reasonable.
     
  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    Not a chance. I would have advised one of the brothers to perhaps stick to kickboxing or UFC. Fighting in the same era and same division hurt their legacies in the long run because at numerous points of their careers, they were the #1 and #2 but wouldn't fight each other. Understandable, but their resume and the fans both suffered. We ended up with a rather dull era for the most part since there were very few who could match the two of them h2h.

    Vitali's record looks impressive on paper, but many of the contenders and champions he beat simply weren't very impressive. Very old versions of Sanders and Briggs, stationary cavemen like Peter, Chisora, Arreola, the relatively tiny Hide, etc. Failed to rematch Byrd (who he shouldn't have lost to in the first place), didn't fight Haye after being called out, didn't fight Rahman. Took several years off due to injuries (not his fault, but it really hurt his already mediocre record).

    You can only get so much mileage out of impressive stats like rounds won v lost, never being knocked out, connect percentage, etc when the record is sorely lacking. Especially if those stats are against sub par competition. I can think of several heavies (not even ATGs) who can pull off similar stats against Vitali's opponents.
     
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  13. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No,, not close either
     
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  14. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

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    I rate Wlad at 10 and Vitali at 20.

    H2H, I'm guessing Vitali would be higher than little brother, but he suffers from a lack of names on his resume. Not necessarily his fault...the fact that he 'couldn't' fight Wlad, injuries, fate, etc.
     
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    In time you can tell me why and how past greats struggled as much as they did vs "subpar" competition by the standards of ring magazine's top ten contenders, and below that mark, okay? I'll look forward to reading it. Almost every era can be viewed as overrated if we are being honest. And Hide in many era's would be a big man, would he? That would be a yes. A re-match vs Byrd was not an option when he signed with Don King and matched Byrd vs. Holyfield, McCline Tua, Golota, Oquendo, and Williamson if we are being honest. It was only afterward when Don King's game ( contracts ) ended for the IBF belt that Byrd accepted a big play day from Wlad when things ended.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022